forward:
i first began my modern netsurfing career at the well. as most folk have heard, the well is one of the oldest and best bbs on the planet and has evolved to be, at the very least the most evolved social space in the net. one day i had a conversation that made me rather ill. it was one of those things that i didn't expect but hit me like a ton of bricks. i have since (of course) mellowed out and learned not to expect so much of folks who have no equivalent cool zone. but at the time, it was quite a shock.here follows what led to my quitting.
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Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
By: Kathleen Johnston (kj) on Fri, Nov 20, '92
74 responses so farSomeone leaked a crucial memo to the defense, according to NPR this morning.
74 responses total.
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 1: Roger Raphael (imlac) Fri, Nov 20, '92 (12:13) 2 linesI heard about this second-hand. It sounds absolutely shocking. Does anyone have details?
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 2: Here's yer hat, what's yer hurry, _George_? (jstraw) Fri, Nov 20, '92 (17:57) 2 linesI don't know what to say about this. I hope to hell someone gets charged for this. Un-fucking-believable.
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Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 60: up to our neck in owls (tigereye) Fri, Mar 12, '93 (19:48) 3 linesI believe the guy who made the tape has testified that he missed the first 20 or 30 seconds of the incident -- while he went to get his camera. Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 61: semiotic swampist (mbowen) Fri, Mar 12, '93 (20:06) 6 linesSo when is videotape going to replace personal testimony? Obviously Rodney King wouldn't know when he's being taunted by slurs; we need Casper quick!
What I recall is that officers showed up in King's hospital room referring to the 'game of baseball' they played. In So. Cal black colloquy 'baseball' is what cops play upside your head. Subtle.
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 62: Jim Rutt (jimrutt) Sat, Mar 13, '93 (05:19) 12 linesJust because the cops might be personally racists (and probably a majority of white cops are) and even if they bragged about "playing baseball", it still doesn't mean that the events in this incident represent unlawful use of force. I'm *still* the only American that hasn't seen the famous film, but hearing it described (suspect charges cop, attempts repeatedly to get up, refuses to be handcuffed, etc) it certainly sounds like there's at least reasonable doubt on the issue. Police work with violent and drunken suspects ain't pretty. Never has been. Me thinks that a whole lot of this sound and fury is nothing but an emotional reaction to the film, which in reality just depicts "business as usual" on the frontlines.
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 63: semiotic swampist (mbowen) Sat, Mar 13, '93 (08:44) 48 lines..from Derrick Bell
The Rules of Racial Standing
1.
The law grants litigants standing to come into court based on their having sufficeint personal interest and ivolvement in the issue to justify judicial congnizance. Black people (while they may be able to get into court) are denied such standing legitimace in the world generall when they discuss their negative experiences with racism or wven when they attempt to give a positive evaluation of another black person or of his work. No matter what their experience of or expertise, blacks' statements involving race are deemed 'special pleading' and thus not entitled to serious consideration.2.
Not only are blacks' complaints discounted, but black victims of racism are less effective witnesses than are whites, who are members of the oppressor class. This phenomenon reflects a widespread assumption that blacks, unlike whites, cannot be objective on racial issues and will favor their own no matter what. This deep seated belief fuels a continuing effort - despite all manner of Supreme Court decisions intended to curb the practice - to keep black people off juries in cases involving race. Black judges hearing racial cases are eyed suspiciously and sometimes asked to recuse themselves in favor of a white judge - without those making the request even being aware of the paradox in their motions.3.
Few blacks avoid diminishment of racial standing, most of their statements abot racial condidtions being diluted and their recommendations of other blacks taken with a grain of salt. The ususal exception to this rule is the black person who publicly disparages or criticizes other blacks who are speaking or acting in ways that upset whites. Instantly, such statements are granted 'enhanced standing' even when the speaker has no special expertise or experience in the subject he or she is criticizing.(there are two more rules)
In light of such ideas concerning the testimony of Rodney King especially when it is granted that far too many (maybe most) white LAPD officers are indeed racist, the emphasis on video as testimony has now granted enhanced standing to machines over black victims of brutality. The creator of the tape originally offered it, not to media, but to the police department itself and is actually suing one or more local news stations for infringement of his intellectual property rights. The defence in the original trial paid extraordinary attention to frame by frame analysis of the tape and described the 'blow by blow' such that this virtual reality replaced that which would be common sense.Imagine no videotape, more than 20 police officers and one drunk in a sealed area. The drunk comes out with a pulverized face and brain damage...
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 64: Mitchell Halberstadt (mitchell) Sat, Mar 13, '93 (13:14) 8 linesAbsolutely right! But one day I *would* like to discuss (maybe by email, not to clutter and drift here) the notion that by being born "white" (a loaded term) I am, by definition, a "member of the oppressor class." I suspect you're also a person who believes that people of color cannot, by definition, be "racist." (Can they be "racially prejudiced"?) I'm already drifting. Please email me on this if you like.
Meanwhile, all power to the People, over the Machines!
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 65: dehydrated sugared whale drool (mcdee) Sat, Mar 13, '93 (13:20) 5 linesI blew the mind of one of my Black high school students by pointing out that his Boston Celtics warm-up jacket displayed a highly offensive ape-like characterization of an Irishman.
He didn't know whether I was kidding or what...
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 66: Alexander Winter (memo) Sun, Mar 14, '93 (19:50) 2 linesmaybe many or maybe most whites are both oppressor and oppressed, thinking that they are neither.
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 67: Tom Mandel (mandel) Sun, Mar 14, '93 (22:34) 3 linesWhatever are you talking about? What is this "oppressor"/"oppressed" stuff?
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 68: Alexander Winter (memo) Mon, Mar 15, '93 (14:12) 13 linesWell. Suppose I work for a bank that practices redlining. I don't do it myself, but I get my paycheck from the bank that does it. I am an oppressor. Then, my bank is involved in crooked loans, projects that were created to fail. The bank fails. Fed bails it out. Meaning, I help bail it out, although it is not called a tax in itself, it is in fact a burdensome tax. Also, the fed sells it to associates of the same crooks who were running the bank in the first place, at steeply discounted rate. I am oppressed.
I am oppressor; I am oppressed.
Is whatever I am talking about, just a little piece of it
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 69: Has Dirty Toenails (jpgordon) Mon, Mar 15, '93 (15:06) 3 linesYou are not oppressor. You are employed by oppressor. There is a real difference. Slaves of the monster are not in themselves monsters; they are victims.
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 70: dehydrated sugared whale drool (mcdee) Mon, Mar 15, '93 (15:44) 2 linesYeah, but who's a monster and who's a stooge of the monster depends very much on one's perspective.
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 71: semiotic swampist (mbowen) Mon, Mar 15, '93 (17:00) 11 linesdrifting, we are. Confuse the issues, we must not. But to joots mandelwise, partially satisfy hrh and leave enough for someone w/ more wellknowhow to start a new thread.
a) 'white' folks in America have no discernable anti- racist praxis which allows them a credible exit from what Bell terms the 'oppressor class'. - They generally end up sounding like the orphan William Kunstler at best and sometimes like truejim.
b) black racism = red herring. You can't make hay out of small fish. Many do because of the lack stated in a).
c) infinite regress is stupid. Should I refuse to wear cotton? There is plenty enough ugliness (in whatever year this is, Virginia) going round, too bad so many try doggedly to be colorblind (like dogs are).
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 72: Jim Braden (truejim) Mon, Mar 15, '93 (21:10) 27 linesWhy is William Kuntsler, a man I know and have sometimes agreed with and sometimes not, an "orphan" (do you mean literally or figuratively -- and in what sense)? I can't tell if you're criticizing him or complimenting him because he at least doesn't "sound" as bad I do.
And that, by the way, is what, exactly? Since you've used my name in vain, but not referred to anything I've said (the classic ad hominem that people on the Well so frequently leap to condemn), perhaps you'd do me the courtesy of providing a reference, so that I and others could evaluate the content, rather than just your venom.
Black racism is *not* a red herring. I won't let a black racist like Derrick Bell define me and what "class" I'm in, and if I'm recalling correctly that you are black, then I won't let a black racist like you do it either. Well, "let" may be the wrong word, since you're free to say here whatever you like. But I won't leave it unanswered. I don't tolerate racist crap from any direction by anybody, and nobody set you up as my judge and jury on this issue just because, if it is the case, you happened to have been born black. I would *never* write about you (and certainly not without citation to specifics you'd said), nor about what you said, by referring to your being disabled by your race from having a valid point of view. Yet you choose, in furtherance of your agenda, to do this frequently (your post above is not your first in this vein). *That* is black racism. You'd be better advised, brother, to spend your energy getting your own house in order than fucking around with unleashing diatribes against white people. If you don't like the sound of that -- then fuck you!
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 73: semiotic swampist (mbowen) Tue, Mar 16, '93 (19:59) 5 linesof course the only valid criticism I could possibly have against truejim or William Kunstler is that either of you is a racist. Thank you for that critical affirmation. I shall not cease being provocative but all are free to (mis)interpret as they please. As I unscroll these screaming screens, I will repost..
Topic 304: Obstruction in the Federal Rodney King case
# 74: Alexander Winter (memo) Wed, Mar 17, '93 (04:18) 3 linesto participate, and p[rofit from, oppressive system of government is to oppress. Obviously a different level of responsibility. But that is what Nuremberg was about, eh?
my reply was my last post to the well...
Firstly to Kunstler.
Kunstler, by my reconing, is a classic liberal with a gutsy, principled approach. With his record on Civil Rights such as it is and his championing of 'lost causes' against the justice system, he has admirable credentials. If there were a John Brown Society alive and kicking today, no doubt he'd be in the leadership. Unfortunately there is not, and William Kunstler is more William Kunstler than anything else. Like Gore Vidal, Noam Chomsky and William Agee, he represents to me a potential insider turned out. A political orphan of moral conscience. He is more symbol now than anything else, yet can still command an audience. I last saw him at Times Square ranting in the wrong direction about what to think about Rodney King. Here again we talk about who gets the opportunity to speak. As long as there is a William Kunstler, wise old liberal, the political mainstream can point to his marginal example and expect that all has been heard. Nothing new in this.
These days we have a generation of liberal thinkers, so properly identified by Cornel West are
'liberal structuralists - who call for full employment, health, education and child-care programs, and broad affirmative action programs. In short, a more sober version of the best of the New Deal and the Great Society: more government money, better bureaucrats, and an active citizenry'
Not so hard for these folks it seems. The very idea of being 'progressive' instead of radical, of expecting some institutional reform and having that reform serve as the proper integrational point for all members of society seems to me, arrogant. And a damn strange way to get to know black folks, thus black folks troubles (when they are of concern). West clearly sees, as I do from experience, that these are not the only structures which affect the quality of life of Americans, and that solutions to problems in poor black communities that well meaning liberals seek to address are not constructed solely in terms of economics and politics. Where truejim and I came to disagreement was in the area of 'excess dollars' in black communities that he thought might be properly spent on programs of computer literacy which could result in higher test scores, access to the internet & electronic democracy, etc. My experience with empowered liberals such as those who might head up a law firm is that..
Continuing from West.
'...their focus on structural constraints relates almost exclusively to economics and politics. They show no understanding of the structural character of culture. Why? Because they tend to view people in egoistic and rationalist terms, according to which they are primarily motivated by self-interest and self-preservation. Needless to say this is partly true of most of us. Yet people, especially degraded and oppressed people, are also hungry for identity, meaning and self-worth.'
Sounding like truejim means talking about self-legitimizing exploits into poor black communities and extracting political and economic data which suggest that a bit of hard work, organization and well-implemented plans could balance things up a bit. Didn't Ellison disprove this in Invisible Man? Yet as West again notes abouth the liberal structuralists
'...they hesitate to talk honestly about culture, the realm of meaning and values, because to do so may lend itself too readily to conservative conclusions in the narrow way Americans discuss race. If there is a hidden taboo among liberals, it is to resist talking about values too much because it takes the focus away from structures, especially the positive role of government. But this failure leaves the psychological and existential realities of black people in the lurch.'
You see, I have little use for Johnathon Kozoll, Andrew Hacker, William Julius Wilson, or Theodore Cross, for that matter. I'd like to think that I could use them, but it's too late. Now for all his faults, even his black racism, none of these geeks will ever be as influential as Malcolm. He was talking *spirit*. This is something most progressives fail to recognize, because progressives talk economics and politics.
As for white folk being essentially handicapped. I said no such thing. I asked for discernable anti-racist praxis. One which might, for example obviate the need for Christopher Commissions and FBI investigations into LAPD institutional racism, and Kerner Commissions and all this blue ribbon madness. Anti-racist praxis is not jungle fever.
As for Derrick Bell being racist, there's an interesting twist. But whether or not he is matters little to me since his recent disassociation with Harvard and new association with City College have rendered him, for those claxons against black racism, morally impotent and guilty by association. I doubt that he is an intrinsic or extrinsic racist though certainly his experiences have jaded him almost beyond hope. (Of course his own rules say you are right and I am wrong).
As for me being a black racist. Well gee. Im not. Yours is the burden of proof. In fact, I can't even afford to be pessimistic or I would sit around the house all day reading Charles Wright or Chester Himes and throwing whiskey bottles at ofays in the street. So spurious comments about cynicism need desist. I simply know where I am going to find true critical affirmation and where I am not.
It is unfortunate that you remain invisible to yourself. Certainly you may have distinguished yourself in manners seemingly quite objective to you on matters of race, but then I think a number of conscientious Americans have come to rethink that objectivity in light of new politics of difference. Yet even without that, I perceive an inability of white Americans to adequately understand the culture of black American communities yet with a great ability to intervene in the business of black American communities. Ocean Hill/ Brownsville Board of Ed. crisis being a paramount example, not to mention all the old marxists that show up on King day parades. That is because it takes an extraordinary white person to deal with the interpersonal nuances of co-existing with black people and there is not a wide variety of existential models for whites to follow who are genuinely concerned with positive change. George Carlin seems to have the knack, yet still refers to himself as 'ofay white boy' etc. The woman who runs the Body Shop is a classic liberal structuralist already commodifying her business qua exotic culture grok via American Express commercials. The Beastie Boys ill big time on the wack tip attempting some reverse cross over appeal, but don't compare authentically to 3rd Bass who are self-defined 'products of the environment'. Yet each of these examples show people who in the older generation give up a bit of their whiteness, and in the younger generation tend to give up more. Carlin and 3rd Bass are morally motivated and have given up traditional white power, though for the Beasties it gets vague.
Again notice particularly how whiteness *is* political and economic status and how the old heads, Kunstler, Vidal, Chomsky consciously abandon that which they could have easily appropriated. Mike Davis, in embracing a new mix of marxist criticism and cultural specificity in his historical work breaks barriers. Contrast him with Howard Zinn. Though Davis could break through and seriously address his existential position as chronicler there is still some distance. If you look particularly at his book on Los Angeles 'City of Quartz' as it relates to the culture of black gangs - who symbolize a prototypical entry point for discussion along the liberal axis - and compare it to the critically impoverished 'Crips' by Donald Bakeer, the polished 'Do or Die' by what's her name and the film 'Boyz in the Hood' by Singleton, you see how crucially identity. How one crawls in and out of constructions of blackness and whiteness determines to a large extent how equally valid observations about black culture can be exercised in praxis. Of course the cultural understanding has economic and political dimensions otherwise there could be no such thing as rap.
I think quite clearly this illustrates a difference I perceive in things such as concepts of citizenship, community and patriotism. Focus on individual rights as an economic and political construct works well for 'whites' but is often meaningless for African Americans in terms of identity considering how much self-regard is negotiable from recently accorded public accomodations and that which is supported by black cultural institutions of church, family, & communications. When I speak of a project in cyberspace as you alluded to regarding my 'agenda', it is closest to that which seeks to identify strategies of identity and communications in cyberspace juxtaposed with that in ex-digital reality.