Cobb

Well, you learn something new every day. I don't celebrate Kwanzaa but it was apart of my upbringning. But I do agree that folks that oppose Kwanzaa seem to be off point about it. I know some very ugly (on the inside) Christians and that has never made me question my faith in God. The same with Kwanzaa. I'm not sure if I'll ever celebrate it but I see nothing wrong with its principles and I see nothing wrong with black folk wantign to celebrate it.

Should've ended every day of Kwanzaa w/ a drinking game, then it'd be a no-brainer for Americans! ;) No really, only problem i've got with it is that it seems on the surface as divisive . . . 'a black thing'. It's one thing to add to American culture, but damn I've already got 4 holidays in 7 days at years end . . . including 2 birthdays of family!! I'm up to my ears! Well, good luck.

Interesting post. I'll still never agree with the principles of Kwanzaa because of the socialist roots and the man behind it, but you've opened my eyes on the people who celebrate it. Thanks.

That would put you into a Kwanzaa debate instead of an insulting dismissal.

I don't fully understand the full bore attack. It smells.

Yeah tell me about it. I'm going to sleep on it and see how I feel about it tomorrow, but LaShawn deleted my response out of her blog, which of course she has a right to do. But this is particularly annoying to me, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

I cannot separate the holiday from its founder.

I am willing to listen to the people who do celebrate the holiday, but I cannot respect the holiday.

Sorry.

I wonder David, if you could separate the personal flaws of signers of the Declaration of Independence with the value of the document? If you were to discover that some individual signer, say Button Gwinnett of Georgia were convicted of a felony five years after he signed it, would you disavow America entirely? If that were true, would you look back on your family celebrations of Independence Day as an endorsement of that crime?

What about the people of Iraq? Would you hold it against them that they were citizens of an Arab Socialist state indefinitely? What about the citizens of Mississippi? Would you hold invalid their humanity because Mississippi was once a slave-holding state? Could you not separate the current champions of Mississippi from those in Jim Crow or Civil War Days?

The intent of the signers holds importance, as does Ron's intent with Kwanzaa.

Eventually the holiday may overcome its parentage.

Maybe I'll still be alive to see that day if it ever comes.

Is it fair to assign Kwanzaa to one individual? It would seem to me that there was a movement and he was the one that brought in national exposure. I think there is more to the opposition than what people are letting on.

Not sure what to make of Kwanzaa, really. Where I'm from it has this stigma of cheapskaterism, but I still don't understand the level of haterism about it, in general. It's like people who hate on Oprah. Hate? Like you hate Sadaam H? I agree she's annoyingly uppity and self-absorbed sometimes, but is she worthy of hate? Does she do far more harm than good?

Why is Kwanzaa worthy of that much open disrespect?

p.s. Cobb, the sooner you realize La Shawn is pathologically insecure, the better off you'll be.

Jesus Christ! Hepp' me Lord!

I'm so sick of this BS put forward by pseudo Christians who have so little room in their heart and are so insecure in their own beliefs that they must put down and disrespect everything that doesn't coincide with their view of Christianity.

It's a good thing Christ isn't around to see what people are doing in his name. Because no doubt many of these people would get a rule waking at the hands of their Lord and Savior.

On second thought make that WILL get a rude awakening, because he's coming for you, so you better get yourselves right with the Lord... before it's too late.

PS Queen LaShawn will never be the Star of anything, except of course in her own pathetic little warped mind.

Liz here, the li'l old (white) lady from Los Altos. I forget when I first heard about Kwanzaa -- probably at Stanford in the 70s when I was studying anthropology.

What interested me at the time was the drive to create ritual or ceremony to make sense of the changing world. American life in the middle of the 20th century had a particular or peculiar lack of ritual and ceremony. With the hindsight of several decades, I think that lack was part of the social ferment of the 60s, and boom in cultural appropriations--the whole idea of the "plastic shaman" (a good website on the whole issue can be found at:

http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/index.htm)

So one of Ms. Barber's complaints about Kwanzaa is that it is "made up". To that I reply, Christian Science or Church of the Latter-Day Saints, anybody? Are these two faiths completely invalid because they were the brainchildren of individuals?

How about Armistice Day--a public, secular celebration that didn't exist before 1918? It too is "made up".

I do agree with one point Kwame Anthony Appiah made, in the article Ms. Barber linked to: the fallacy of unanimism:

http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.17961,filter.all/pub_detail.asp

we shall not be surprised at what is one of the most tiresome features of Afrocentrism, namely its persistence in what the Beninois philosopher (and current Minister of Culture) Paulin Hountondji has called "unanimism:" the view that there is an African culture to which to appeal. It is surely prima facie preposterous to suppose that there is an African culture, shared by everyone from the civilizations of the upper Nile thousands of years ago to the thousand or so language-zones of contemporary Africa.

Unanimism is also a feature of the new-age appropriations of Native American spirituality--it assumes a commonality of expression that just doesn't exist.

So is Kwanzaa tainted with the "plastic shaman" charge? Not in my book. Why? Karenga was clear that he had created (or "made up", if you are being accusatory) the concept, and that his ideas were derivative and syncretistic, not a direct descendant of any particular spiritual tradition.

Is Kwanzaa irrevocably tainted by being the brainchild of Maulana Karenga, a person who has committed crimes and who has a questionable political philosophy? We would have to throw out a whole lot of public mythology if that were true. Good things can come of the work of bad people.

I think your point is well-taken:

It has transcended its roots and has become something different than what it started as. I think what it has become depends entirely on the spirit of the people who celebrate it.

The seven values (Unity, Self-Determination, Collective Work and Responsibility, Cooperative Economics, Purpose, Creativity, Faith) are core American values.

Collective Work is a socialist value, some say. Nonsense. What do you call a barnraising? Cooperative Economics is anti American, some say. More nonsense. Look at farmers' collectives and credit unions, for two examples.

We very well understood that there was not one Africa, but we sustained the naive belief in the power of Swahili to be a uniting force. So while it was clear that there was no singular African culture surely there was some ism we could create which would be as comprehensively positive as the twin powers of racism and colonialism. Of course that didn't work either, but it gave rise to the kind of hope necessary to overcome.

One could not be any part of pan-africanist thought and not witness the incredible phenomenon that was Muhammad Ali's fame and success in the muslim and African world and not feel that American blacks could influence Africa for the better. That power still exists in hiphop. People all over the world ape American black cultural production, hell the very idea that American black cultural production is a powerful force was part and parcel of the impetus behind cultural nationalism.

Kwanzaa makes more sense to me than Christianity and Christmas. If this offends, sorry. There are some of us out here who have chosen alternate beliefs and they work for us. I revere my ancestors because they are more real and immediate to me than Jesus Christ. In Africa ancestor worship after centuries of disparagement and demonization by white missionaries is having a rebirth. In Brazil the syncretized African religion of Candomble which enslaved Africans kept alive has experienced a tsunami of revival. There are now 5,000 Candomble temples in Brazil. Candomble priests went to Brazil’s Supreme Court to have their religion recognized after Christians harassed their faith. Kwanzaa, whatever its origins is part of the worldwide African search to reclaim our identity and the fact that it has grown and is celebrated in countries all over the world testifies to its resonance among a people seeking their own rebirth. It will continue to grow despite its detractors. As for Lashawn Barber the less said the better, but there are still a few self-hating blacks who desperately seek white approval and patronage because they have so little credibility among their own people.

Kwanzaa makes more sense to me than Christianity and Christmas. If this offends, sorry. There are some of us out here who have chosen alternate beliefs and they work for us. I revere my ancestors because they are more real and immediate to me than Jesus Christ. In Africa ancestor worship after centuries of disparagement and demonization by white missionaries is having a rebirth. In Brazil the syncretized African religion of Candomble which enslaved Africans kept alive has experienced a tsunami of revival. There are now 5,000 Candomble temples in Brazil. Candomble priests went to Brazil’s Supreme Court to have their religion recognized after Christians harassed their faith. Kwanzaa, whatever its origins is part of the worldwide African search to reclaim our identity and the fact that it has grown and is celebrated in countries all over the world testifies to its resonance among a people seeking their own rebirth. It will continue to grow despite its detractors. As for Lashawn Barber the less said the better, but there are still a few self-hating blacks who desperately seek white approval and patronage; call them the ‘psychic walking wounded.’

You make many statements but you offer no analysis as Ms Barber did in her piece. You leave it at celebrate Kwanzaa if you are black because I was there in the beginning. You give no meat. Nothing to refute what Ms Barber has said. Why ask why? Is all I as the reader an left with.

I posted two long pieces at Barber's site which were promptly deleted. Miss Barber felt that I was insulting her personally, and so I began this particular thread starting with the quote from Ann Landers.

I am not expecting all blacks or even the majority of blacks to celebrate Kwanzaa. It really doesn't matter to me if they do or don't. Just as I don't expect all blacks to join the Republican party. I just expect that people consider the probability that those who do either, do so for legitimate reasons. Barber suggests vehemently that there is no room for both Christianity and Kwanzaa in any black household, and I offer my own as a counterexample. My counterexample, probably unique among Barber's readers ought to be one that is worth examining, however she has decided that cannot and will not happen on her website. I think it's a poor choice, but that she is not likely to regret it. I have my own website and plenty of time.

What would you like to see analyzed?

>

What are you referring to when you say "spirit"?

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What was your specific role?

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What does Kwanzaa do for people?? How does your insulting a huge segment of black people world wide by demeaning their faith that Jesus will do for them strengten your position??? THAT SHOULD BE SUFFICENT TO START..

One more thing...what does kwanzaa or Karenga have to do with Jefferson or Franklin??

When I mention 'the spirit of the people who celebrate Kwanzaa' I mean just that. Are they racist? Are they anti-American? Are they actually anti-Christian? What is their aim in celebration? Is it to tear down Churches?

My specific role was to be young gifted and black. You could consider me an Eagle Scout of the times. If you would take some time to read some of the 20 odd posts I have written about Ligon, St Luke's Church, Damu and other Kwanzaa material here, that's what I think it will take to get the proper context.

I don't feel that I am insulting black Christians anymore than a Physics professor insults black Christians. There is no room for Jesus in Computer Science, does that mean you should turn off your computer and ride the bus? Of course not. You're being silly, unless of course you actually believe that no worldly knowledge is useful if it is not authenticated by scripture. If that's the case we have serious quarrels as citizens in a nation of laws.

Hey dan, are those belligerent question marks? or the "I just don't feel like reading today" question marks? LOL.

I have read some of your other posts. I see that I am wasting both your time and mine with inquiries. Thank you for your time.

I have read some of your other posts. I see that I am wasting both your time and mine with inquiries. Thank you for your time.

Hey, I do not believe in Kwanzaa (because it seems a bit communist to me) but I have to say nice website.

I live in Los Angeles, and my people are creole too. My grandparents still speak that French to each other now and then.

Anyhow, great blog, oh, and a good discussion about Kwanzaa went down at La Shawn Barber's corner. Be sure to check that out.

Good look and God's speed in all things.

Hey, I do not believe in Kwanzaa (because it seems a bit communist to me) but I have to say nice website.

I live in Los Angeles, and my people are creole too. My grandparents still speak that French to each other now and then.

Anyhow, great blog, oh, and a good discussion about Kwanzaa went down at La Shawn Barber's corner. Be sure to check that out.

Good look and God's speed in all things.

BTW - James Brown might have made a song Im black and I am proud, but I saw him on tv about a month ago gallavanting around Europe with a white woman. So much for that.

"*I'm* black and I'm proud; *she's* Polish and she's proud" I might have sung in highschool 22 yrs ago..

But I digress.

Love the thread; hate this blog (dammit, it's 5:30am now - I need sleep to finish this damnable SBIR app in coherent english - stop writing good thoughts you evil conservative sellout!)

Anyway, much of the Old Testament was written by a murderer, and much of the NT was written by a Christian hunter - time to ditch the bible I 'spose; 'cept maybe all the red text in Matthew, Luke, John and Mark.