Cobb

Yep, Tookie can go, and without a day's delay.

Sorry, got to disagree. I think he's guilty, the courts think he's guilty, but I've been wrong and the courts have been wrong before. Once a man's dead, you can't give anything back to him if you're wrong. I'd say commute to life in prison without possibility of parole (if such a sentence is even possible in California).

Yeah if it wasn't four counts of murder and he wasn't a gangbanger, I could see that.

Erring on the side of caution would be if the guy ran in on his wife with another man.

I'm not for the death penalty under any circumstances. It is beyond me how any Christian can support it.

BTW, your trackbacks still aren't working. :(

Let suppose the probability in any individual trial of being wrong is very small, say 0.0000000000000001. (I actually think the probability that a trial produces a wrong outcome is actually much larger) If each trial is independent, then the possibility that 4 repeated trials would be wrong are the probability of one trial being wrong raised to the fourth power. [Sorry Cobb, I know you program and therefore know this stuff, but...] Admittedly, it would be a very small number, but it would not be zero. It would need to be zero for me to change my mind ("The man has a mind like a closed steel trap").

And your idea of erring on the side of caution in the case of marital indiscretion is certainly not Dick Armey's -- I just love his "I'd be lying in a pool of blood with my wife standing over me saying 'How do I reload this damned thing'"

Well I'd say that the probablity of an individual trial being wrong is closer to .03 and Mr. Williams probably had a multicount indictment with a single trial. But he most certainly has had a quarter of a century for appeals, and given his extraordinarily high profile, if there was something that could have been done to spring him, it would have been tried - or assesed and deemed impossible. His time has finally run out.

The odd thing is that had he been in the streets, he probably would have been shot a long time ago. He's been too long living on the public dime and doesn't deserve the public's trust.

Is Williams of greater use to the public welfare alive rather than eternally silent? Or has Williams actually written a fitting end to the life of a seemingly now good man, redeemed and perhaps preparing to make a meaningful end? What will our children learn from the life and execution of this once-amoral but now noble human being? If Williams lives on or is executed, has he successfully delivered his lesson before dying?

I'm afraid that you are living under the delusion that the state has to be Christlike. The state does not. The state protects us by using its power to enforce the law, and so long as human beings are capable and will make life and death decisions, then the state must as well.

The wisdom of all human experience has shown that without question the single most reprehensible crime is murder. It is an invariant in all history, is now and ever shall be. There is nothing to be learned from excusing Williams but that some people lack the character, backbone and good judgement that justice demands.

We have taken the business of revenge from the families of the murdered and placed it in the hands of the state. Having done so, it is inevitable that the machinery of the justice system has grinded with all due deliberation over 25 years to this very moment. The very idea of the intent to superceding his death sentence is an insult to those families. It is little more than mob rule - a lynching. The mob insisting on clemency would break into the jail and give Williams more freedom than the system has duly granted him. I say it's cynical anarchy. Of course the governor has the final say, and that too is part of the proxy we have given the state, but this last minute attempt to undo history is an embarrassment.

The message to children and everyone is that monsters must be killed. That is how children sleep. How did you end the story of Little Red Riding Hood for your children?

I don't feel you need to check your faith at the door when you enter the realm of public policy. Religion, yes; faith, no.

To someone on a death trip, the death penalty is a reward. Martyrdom is Nirvana to a narcissist. Why does society owe him the favor? Life in prison without parole would be hell for someone like Williams. He doesn't deserve the mercy of being killed by the state.

The Declaration of Independence presumes that our rights flow from God, not the state. I agree with that view. When the state takes a life in a cold-blooded way (not in war or in self-defense, but as a "punishment" administered to an unwilling person), it seems to be assuming a role that is within God's realm. I find this kind of posturing by government to be repugnant. A government has to be more principled than the people it punishes; and if a government is humble enough to acknowledge that it isn't God, it shouldn't be putting people to death in cold blood.

Isn't a life sentence in prison without parole just the slowest form of torture?

From a conservative perspective, I can see and agree with the notion of restraining government power over life and death. But it conflicts with the state's proxy power. If you can accept that individuals under God have the right to make life and death decisions, then a proper republic should also reserve that right. For the state to default in matters of killing for revenge, if we soley grant that to individuals, we essentially legalize lynching. It is inevitable that such a case would be reached - human behavior dictates it.

I don't think the government should take it upon itself to 'more principled'. It should roughly reflect that will of the people as encumbered by the inefficiency of law and bureacracy. So if it takes 25 years for the man to be killed by the state instead of a couple weeks by his victims' family and a mob, this is acceptable. But if the society wouldn't arrogate that action upon themselves, then the state shouldn't either. I like the idea that the death penalty varies by state.

If God didn't want man to travel faster than the speed of light, then he would have made it impossible. Oh. Wait, he didn't make that mistake. But we can kill each other.

Tim McViegh was fast-tracked to his execution. Tookie Williams should also have been fast-tracked, but since he wasn't, he has spent the last half of his life in prison. And now his time is up.

On a symbolic level, the founder of the crips needs to be executed. Young black males in LA suffered the dual indignity of having to avoid a gangbanger's non-sense while being suspected of something by law enforcement because of that same gangbanger's non-sense.

There are going to be many a person who will exhalt Tookie as a hero. They will put one in the air, pour some on the ground, and do whatever they do to salute a "fallen soldier." He is worthy of no one's pleas for clemency. He is not a political prisoner who was arrested under dubious circumstance, he is not a leader of a moral movement.

And the argument that executing him will not bring back his victims is meaningless, because for that matter, incarcerating him these last years was not going to bring them back, nor letting him go scott free--bringing back the victims was not going to happen anyway, so a life for a life is in order.

Trackback: Stanley Tookie Williams Watch: California Governor Schwarzenegger MULLS Clemency

http://flapsblog.com/?p=1430

There are going to be many a person who will exhalt Tookie as a hero. They will put one in the air, pour some on the ground, and do whatever they do to salute a "fallen soldier." He is worthy of no one's pleas for clemency. He is not a political prisoner who was arrested under dubious circumstance, he is not a leader of a moral movement.

Stepping away from the moral issues for a moment, and looking at this in a strictly political context: In America, it is politically far less desirable to confer martyrdom status to a putative leader or icon by executing them than it is to simply let them rot in jail. Look at the examples of Leonard Peltier or Mumia Abu-Jamal. I think these men are guilty as all hell. Should they be killed for their crimes? Like broke men with big insurance policies, their value to the political fringes that use them is magnified a hundredfold on execution day.

Anyone who doubts the power of a martyred icon should take a stroll through a Catholic church. There He is everywhere, nailed on a cross, blood weeping from the wounds.

Have you seen graphics comparing Tupac Shakur to Christ?

Do you really want to confer this kind of power to Tookie Williams?

We already 'confer this kind of power' to Osama Bin Laden. People who want to hate America's justice system have a higher burden of proof than those who defend it. We are already as clement as we need to be.

If some sort of "power" is conferred on Tookie, whether he lives or dies will have no bearing on that, because those who confer that power are doing so for no rational reason, and in the end will either grow up and denounce their own irrationality or they'll just be locked in some anachronistic outlaw fantasy.

He murdered with no regard for the lives he was taking. He's had 26 years of life then, and as far as I can tell, he is not rotting in jail. I think it is a fallacy that life without parole is some terrible existence. I bet those victims would have preferred to be alive the last 26 years.

this is real simple
the death penalty is about revenge not justice,,gangs are about revenge not justice..same mentality to me
Jesus clearly stated..an eye for an eye is no longer the way..Love ye one another is
you have not been wronged by this man
so why do you need revenge and call it justice

this is real simple
the death penalty is about revenge not justice,,gangs are about revenge not justice..same mentality to me
Jesus clearly stated..an eye for an eye is no longer the way..Love ye one another is
you have not been wronged by this man
so why do you need revenge and call it justice

Sharon what the hell kind of bizarre logic is that...

1. Death penalty is about revenge
2. Jesus said eye for an eye (revenge) is no longer
3. Therefore the death penalty should be no longer practiced

Your whole argument is built on the faulty premise that they death penalty is revenge. Since you brought the bible into it, it is incumbent that you show where in the bible the death penalty, which is shown in use throughout the whole bible, transformed from a 'penalty' to 'revenge' as you suggest.

Stop abusing the bible to support your own program.

Back to the topic. Tookie needs to die, now I can respect folks who are against the death penalty in any and every case, although I would like to see how they feel if they had a 5 year old daughter raped and murdered, but I don't respect the folks who are for the death penalty and believe this guy should receive clemency because of some transformed life he supposedly had. All of a sudden his victims didn't die, there children didn't lose parents, there family didn't lose kin because this dude writes childrens books? Come on.

He has taken life unjustly, and therefore his life should be taken. I am not even adding the fact that he created the crips to the equation. In my book, he took four lives and he should be put to death four times if possible.

Sharon what the hell kind of bizarre logic is that...

conjoined with this unselfconscious revenge screed

Back to the topic. Tookie needs to die, now I can respect folks who are against the death penalty in any and every case, although I would like to see how they feel if they had a 5 year old daughter raped and murdered, but I don't respect the folks who are for the death penalty and believe this guy should receive clemency because of some transformed life he supposedly had. All of a sudden his victims didn't die, there children didn't lose parents, there family didn't lose kin because this dude writes childrens books?

adds up the unintended black conservative irony of the week!!! what would I do for a good belly laugh without the neverending coonshow of what passes for logic, thought, or even an ordinary waking state of consciousness among members of the 2% micro-crowd...,

tookie kan suk my balls

It is time that criminals take responsability for their actions. Despite the unfair system minorities face each one of us has a choice. Either work the system through education or be a ganster. If you work the system legally you have a chance at financial and tangible rewards. You become a gangsta; you run the risk of having the state kill you or one of your rivals kill you. But once the wrong choice is made and you get caught- live with the consequences...Harry B

It is time that criminals take responsability for their actions. Despite the unfair system minorities face each one of us has a choice. Either work the system through education or be a ganster. If you work the system legally you have a chance at financial and tangible rewards. You become a gangsta; you run the risk of having the state kill you or one of your rivals kill you. But once the wrong choice is made and you get caught- live or die with the consequences...Harry B

I think they should save the taxpayers some money and fry Tookie along with Mumia. There are over 600 assholes on death row in California alone. Isn't it time we stopped paying for their cable TV, hot showers, and allowing them to get book deals and TV movie deals in prison? Fry, gas, or lethaly inject them all!

well, all i can say if he commited a crime he needs to pay for it.. and bad choices you have to pay for them sooner or later... so all gangs are bad why? well is just not right what they do.. it always hurting and killing... who gives that right... ???? if you kill by soward you will be killed by the soward

I was doin' time in county 1980 for a bad 245a rap and Tookie was in High Power. Use to see him going from high power to the phones with 8 chains on and 4 screws walking with him just out of arms reach. He was damn scary, even through 3 inches of plexiglass.

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't cast stones. People are so easy to condemn what should happen to Tookie Williams. I don't believe any of these people sit on the right hand of GOD. Yes he was the co-founder of the crips so what I don't see anyone posting anything about the slave masters or these men who killed blacks back in the 50's and 60's who are now going to try so don't give me this crap about justice being carried out. ANYWAY YOU SLICE BY TOOKIE LIVING OR DYING IT'S NOT GOING TO BRING ANY OF THOSE DEAD PEOPLE BACK. AY DE MI!

TOOKIE IS A KILLER! IT IS TIME FOR JUSTICE TO PREVAIL. THANKS TO HIM AND HIS TRUE ORGANIZATION, THE CRIPS, A LOT OF YOUNG LIVES HAVE BEEN DESTROYED...JUST BECAUSE THIS HALF LITERATE MONSTER TEAMED UP WITH AN AUTHOR AND HAD A FEW BOOKS PUBLISHED DOESN'T MEAN HE SHOULD NOT RECEIVE HIS ULTIMATE PUNISHMENT. PAROLE HIM TOMORROW AND HE WILL BE IN THE STREETS DISPLAYING HIS COLORS ROBBING INNOCENT PEOPLE. I FEEL THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA NEEDS TO FINISH THE JOB AND EXECUTE THIS PIECE OF GARBAGE.

To: ALABAMAHAMMER AND OTHERS

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IS IN A MAN'S HEART. IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO I WAS REFERRING TO EARLIER. EVERYONE ALWAYS HAS A NEGATIVE COMMENT TO ADD AND I'M SICK OF IT. HAVE YOU LIVED AN UPRIGHT LIFE? HAS EVERY DECISION AND CHOICE THAT YOU MADE BEEN A GOOD ONE? HAVE YOU CROSSED EVERY "T" AND DOTTED ALL OF YOUR "I"'S I THINK NOT. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TOMORROW HAS IN STORE FOR YOU, YOU MAY END UP ONE DAY BE PUT IN A POSITION WHERE YOU WILL BE LOOKED DOWN UPON SO BEFORE YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH TO COMMENT YOU SHOULD SHOW SOME SYMPATHY. I NEVER KILLED ANYONE WITH A GUN, NOR A KNIFE BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE ME ANY BETTER THAN MR. WILLIAMS. I HAVE NEVER BEEN IN A GANG BUT I HAVE FELT THE IMPACT ON GANGS AND THE MENTALITY THAT MOST OF THEM HAVE. SO AGAIN I SAY WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

I wrote this article because I met Tookie in person. I know what I saw, and I know what people who hung around him saw. He is a killer and he has a killer's mentality, and his son is a killer and he raised Crips to be killers.

In society, you have two choices if you're going to be a killer. You can be a soldier, or you can be an outlaw. If you are a soldier, then you kill the enemies of the state. If you are an outlaw, you kill innocent civilians. Tookie chose to be an outlaw, and now he has become an enemy of the state. That means we use our soldiers, in this case the prison system, to kill him.

If you're against the death penalty, fine. Be against the death penalty. We in the Old School certainly don't expect everybody who benefits from the justice system to be appropriately grateful, but we keep the justice system rolling because *we* understand.

It's funny that this discussion reminds me again of the parable of wolves, sheepdogs and sheep. All the pacifist sheep are complaining that the sheepdogs have teeth like the wolf. We know who to bite, and Tookie is going down.

By the way, here's the link to the parable.
http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000129.html

You have taken the Rome back. I remember Crips stommping down for a leather piece. I remember the emergence of high firepower and death in the 80's over drugs and the wrong colors. In the 90's some mo' and some mo. Young people claiming a neighborhood they didn't even live in. Holding communities in fear. 2005 Crips keep on Crippin' and Bloods do that Damu. Tookie is an absent parent. He needs to be held accountable. Too may people have died. What it do cuz?

Everyone keeps saying that Tookie needs to be held accountable. I feel that he has been held accountable thus far, he is not out on the streets as a free man. He is held behind bars without the availabilty like me and you have to come and go freely. I'm so surprised to see that most of the negative post on these message boards on Tookie are from my "black" people. As I have stated on this board and many others I can not judge that of which I'm ignorant to. I come from the inner city and, during my adolescent years I was at risk to be another statistic. I however never was in a gang but, I did have gang ties as many would call them. I sat in classrooms with both crips and bloods. We ate lunch together and I even had study groups at my house with both crips and bloods. Did anyone on these boards ever sit back and look at the total picture? I think not. First and foremost most of the memebers who are in gangs come from broken households that are made up of single mothers raising more than one child at a time. I already know what some may say that is merely a cope out because you know people who come from these same type of environments and they haven't been involved in such activities. Like I said before I will not judge. I can say that myself my mother raised me on her own at times working 2 and 3 jobs. I was a latch key child at the age of 9 and I'm not going to act like I was a perfect little angel. All of my dirt I did in the dark. When I was in the presence of my mother I played the role of that of a well mannered child but, when I was with my friends I played my rebellion role. I just knew what my limits were as far as what type of trouble I would allow myself to get in. I can see why Tookie ended up on the road that he ended up taking. Once again everyone wants to condemn this man and talk about the alleged four murders back in 1979 and what about the victims...please spare me..I don't see these same black folks outraged of what the white race has done to our people since slavery and what they are still doing now so if your not going to talk about all of the wrongs then just dont talk.

Patricia, your there but for the grace of God go I sensibility is a breath of fresh air in the middle of this dank, hypocritical, airchair cheerleading for the immorality of Rome.

To: cnulan and others
I have a question for all the people who have made it perfectly clear that Mr. Williams should die come December 13th. Did you voice the same concern regarding the clemency for other death row inmates who's lives were spared? Did any of you oppose to the recent clemency just granted this week for Mr. Robin Lovitt who was just hours from being executed in the state of Virginia for murdering a man with a pair of scissors over 20 years prior? I would say that the answer to my question is NO you didn't....and yes one can argue and say.....why should he be given Clemency just because he wrote children's books...and I say for the same reason why Mr. Lovitt was granted clemency because he was shown mercy. At least Mr. Williams has given back some positive has Mr. Lovitt I think NOT!

http://da.co.la.ca.us/pdf/swilliams.pdf

Read this. IMO, the man should accept his punishment and the state should execute him ASAP.

I don't believe any of it.

I live in California. I'm not particularly interested in what goes on in Virginia. Where do you live?

To: Cobb

FYI I have a double residency because of my job. The Commonwealth's of both Virginia and Pennsylvania are my home.

If I'm ever on trial, I damned sure hope you're not the DA who delivers the closing argument, MCB. Fine piece of work. Settles it for me.

As far as I am concerned, Tookie is a killer. The man could fry in Crisco oil for all I care.

If Arnold doesn't grant Clemency for Mr. Williams he will be executed in 12 more days. I hope that clemency is granted for Mr. Williams but, in the event that it isn't what can I say. I will say this that if Mr. Williams is executed it will not change the wrongs that he allegedly made. If he is not executed the scenario is the same. Another food item for thought....what about the many cases of where a Death Row inmate has been executed and then evidence comes about to prove that in fact the prisoner was innocent. Just for a moment let us say that Tookie has been executed. Five years later a fresh young DA reopens the case, because they had doubts about Tookie being guilty. During this new investigation they indeed prove that Tookie was innocent. What will you then have to say.....? I know nothing you'll just be sitting back with your mouth's wide open without a comment.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47666

Ms. Plowden, with all due respect, you have been brainwashed by the morally corrupt. Tookie was convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. Writing some pamlets as part of his propoganda to free himself is commendable but does not and should not erase his crimes. Being black does not erase his crimes. If you took the time to read it and study the LADA report instead of posing here every 2 hours, you would see that he was (and still is) a cold blooded vicious killer. If one of your loved ones were murdered by Tookie the vicious animal would you feel the same way as you do now? I hope he fries and dies a violent death. I will cheer and celebrate and dance and laugh the days that he meets his fate.

Mr. Donald Jeremy
I would like to first say thank you for respecting me. However I never said that just because Mr. Williams is black that should erase him of his crimes. In response to your question would I feel the same way if Tookie killed one of my family members. I would not be in the same position that I hold now if Tookie killed one of my family members, but by me having hatred in my heart wouldn't change the situation. It shouldn't be a celebration when anyone dies regardless of how they leave this earth, by being murdered, assasinated,or natural causes. Also if I posted a message her every other minute it's not going to change your point of view on the matter.

kill this man, he is a killer.......

Ms. Plowdend wrote" I would not be in the same position that I hold now if Tookie killed one of my family members". So what you are saying is since you do not know any of the parties involved personally, inluding Tookie, then automatically you feel more sympathy for Tookie as opposed to 4 brutally murdered victims. Tookie should die and should die as painfully as the victims. When he ends up in hell afterwards, may the devil gouge his eyes out and blow him with a shotgun every single day of his 2nd life in hell. The man is a killer and should die. F the pamplets he sent out. It is nothing but a propoganda campaign and only fools too weak of being capable of seeing this would beleive it. BTW, read the LADA file on him. Tookie would kill you to save his own life. That is the kind of man that sould fry to a crisp in an electric hear. The heanious animal.

Mr. Jeremy we could go back and forth all day long about our opinion's on this matter. Yes I do feel more sympathy for Tookie and, for other incarcerated prisoners. It is mainly because of personal reasons and, people like yourself. You call him an animal I would disagree. How do you know that Mr. Williams is going to Hell? My mother always told me when you dig a ditch, dig two....meaning it wouldn't be too funny if you ended up in hell beside Mr. Williams. I would like to pose this question to you Mr. Jeremy.....You feel as though Mr. Williams life should be ended for his vicious crimes...Do you think that it's fair that Jeffrey Dahlmer was sentenced to life in prison and not death??? If he hadn't been murdered himself while in prison he would still be alive today. And then you have Marilyn Mason he as well was spared his life. Both of these two men were as you would prefer to Williams as heanious animals......why was there an exception placed on them to life in prison and, not death.....maybe it has to do with the makeup of their pigmentation!

Ms. Plowden, not once have you felt sorrow for the victims and their families. I only read your sorrow about Tookie. BTW, I am African-American too but that does not make me automatically cheer for Tookie's release. If your family were slaugtered by Tookie then you would feel different. You stated so yourself. That means it is race issue rather than a wrong and right issue. Don't give me some morally dammed response about being black means he was railroad into the jail. You and I are not in jail nor death row because we consciously make the right decisions in life. Why should anyone feel sympathy for someone that didn't? He is a killer, a henious killer, and should die and then burn to a crisp in hell. May the devil fry him every day after the government poison him our of the public's misery.

Ms. Plowden, not once have you felt sorrow for the victims and their families. I only read your sorrow about Tookie. BTW, I am African-American too but that does not make me automatically cheer for Tookie's release. If your family were slaugtered by Tookie then you would feel different. You stated so yourself. That means it is race issue rather than a wrong and right issue. Don't give me some morally dammed response about being black means he was railroad into the jail. You and I are not in jail nor death row because we consciously make the right decisions in life. Why should anyone feel sympathy for someone that didn't? He is a killer, a henious killer, and should die and then burn to a crisp in hell. May the devil fry him every day after the government poison him our of the public's misery.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/12/01/EDG5TG04SF1.DTL

Kill Tookie on Dec 13.

ok yes tookie has done some very bad things but he has been in prison for many long years.
he has had to live with what he did day in day out ok now he wrote books he changed himself publicly which in gangs is bad you never say you changed and gangs are no good when you were in one,i feel he should live his life out in prison with no paroll ok hes not hurting anyone hes actually trying to undo some of this mess through his childrens books and who knows he might get through to someone so leave him alone so my anwer is no he should not be put to death....

This has been a very interesting thread. Mr Williams sounds to have been a very frightening and dangerous person at one time. I'm grateful our paths never crossed. I must admit, I don't like the idea of capital punishment, as even one mistake would be too many. I am myself a white male, but worry about the disproportionate number of blacks in prison and wonder about why that is. I imagine that for many minority youths, lack of opportunity and resources compund with boredom to produce a kind of hopeless and unempowered feeling. This certainly appears to be the case in France right now. Is there some larger failing on society's part that we have produced environments where these gang cultures could florish? I don't know, I'm just kind of writing out loud.

Shondra wrote "he as had to live with what he did". However, he should admit and apologize for what he did and then accept his punishment. The DA report stated he wanted blow up the prison bus, killing the other people on the bus so he could have an easier escape. He threatened jurors. What if you were on the jury. He planned to kill his accomplice in the crimes for fessing up to them. Is this the kind of man that should be set free? If every person on death row wrote books, should they too be eligible to be set free. As I said writing books is commendable but his sentence of death by lethal injection is for the crimes he committed. The books (only 300 sold per an article I read) have nothing to do with his punishment. Fry him. Shondra, if he shot four members of your family with a rifle at close range after he took $260 from them, would you say he should not die too? Kill him now.

Greetings fellow human beings.........Interesting topic of discussion.Many have spoken in reference to Mr. Williams possible execution.All have forgotten a very important situation that plagued L.A.'s " men in blue".I offer no justification ,I offer facts that need to be taken into consideration.The "supposedly" dismantled members of LA's finest (C.R.A.S.H.) unit were investigated and were found to be guilty of falsifying THOUSANDS of arrests, a few years back.Now I know CRASH was not assembled until the mid-80's,however, the L.A.P.D has a HISTORY of error.Although I no longer advocate nor promote banging as a way of life, I see things from all perspectives.Mr. Cobbs with his uppity attitude ,quick to condemn a man he has never met nor spoken to,n a real setting(meaning in the Hood),should keep his opinions within.SCORES of innocent men are being granted new trials and are being released,due to lack of evidence and technological advances that were NOT available in the 60's 70's and 80's.Yeah i like where i live in the US.Better than most other 3rd world countries,however once again ,wasnt our country founded on the same criteria as "gangsterism"?We (AMERICANS) took this country from the Native Indians....LOL Keep it real society......U, the ones who are quick to judge,the ones who live that "holier than thou life" .Truth is,NO ONE should die before OUR CREATOR deems it's time.It especially penetrates our soul when one of our OWN FAMILY MEMBERS passes away by the hands of another.My point is this: If Mr. Williams ,in his incarcerated state, can save lives by promoting his message,why can we not FORGIVE this man guilty or not,regardless of the STATE law,and allow him to breathe the very breath GOD allows him to breathe.

Like I wrote, I met Tookie & Mouse at Centinela Park somewhere around 1974 or '75. They were working out and being badass. Tookie was wearing overalls and no shirt. I didn't have anything to say to him and he didn't have anything to say to me. I'm sure I've seen him other places in the city but that's the only time that stands out in my mind.

My perspective is based also, as I wrote, on what I heard from Tim Green who used to hang out with Tookie & Mouse. Tim was a good kid, but a fearless roughneck who ended up shot from hanging out with people like Tookie. I can't say for sure that he was a Crip, but we believed it.

I read the DAs report. You don't need DNA to figure out a bill of sale. It was Tookie's shotgun, period. Either he shot the people, or he's too stupid to rat out the killer who stole it from him.

If Tookie saves lives from jail, then he's better than teachers, parents, ministers and God himself. Why would anybody with an ounce of brains even think to listen to a convicted murderer for advice in life? That's part of the problem here, that your clemency idea is perpetrating. Speaking of parents, please explain why Tookie's own son is a convicted murderer if Tookie's message is so powerful?

Our Governor will do the right thing and put this tragic story to its proper conclusion, and the will of the people will be done. Remember, it's The People vs Stanley Williams. Stanley Williams will lose.

Yea! Cobb, I'm hearing you. I grew up on West Blvd and Adams, went to Virginia Road Elementary school and then on Rimpau Blvd. off of Slauson and Crenshaw during 71-75. My friends were just starting to run around holding up the "C" sign and yelling CC here. I see now, that was just the beginning. Now when your parents think it's getting so bad that they move you to Detroit, you know somethin's up. So, in retrospect I'm glad we didn't stick around to witness the "fall".

I'm 44 and I'm a lawyer now. I work with juveniles. They have no idea what real life is about. I wonder what Tookies death will do. Make him a martyr or send a message. But I really don't care. None of us were on the jury but neither are the appellate courts. We can only look at transcripts and based on what I've been able to get from the documentation,Tookie has had his justice. Now,he should die. Let his legacy stand for what it is. The appropriate punishment of a man who murdered! And his books will speak to those who will listen.

Damn! I almost never see folks that close. I must know you from Virginia Road. I was in Ms. Milliken's class in 5th and 6th. West B was rough back in those days. I used to box once or twice at the Sugar Ray's police league gym upstairs from the cleaners. What was the name of that cleaners? You know that old japanese aquarium is probably still there on Buckingham.

Rimpau & Slauson is my boy Ebon's old neighborhood. He lived on Kenniston. His older brother Donovan is an attorney in the Valley somewhere. I also went to PASLA on 54th street one summer in the early 70s. Kody Scott grew up around there too, and of course I know you shopped at Buddha.

So I know you know what the Crips are all about, and everybody from the 'hood who does who has weighed in on this issue says the same thing. Fry his ass.

The mid 70s were just the beginning, and kids could hold their own until about 81, 82 when the crack and guns came in. It's kinda hard to believe that Tookie was a shermhead way back in the day. I mean you really had to be beyond hard to get off on sherm. (That's PCP, folks - thusly named because users would take a long Sherman's cigarette, dip it in PCP and smoke it.)

Anyway, it's really cool to meet somebody online from the old neighborhood. Hmm. I lived on Wellington between Jefferson & 30th by the way. Who did I know on West B. I think the Bagnerises lived over there, and Mrs Pullam. Remember Mrs. Pullam? The yard teacher with the lanyard she used to whip people with. She had a boy there too. One summer he showed me how to get into the attic of the main building. Trip!

Oh my God!! When's the last time I even thought about the Buddha Market? LOL You are definately a "homey". I was at Virginia Road for 5th and 6th in 71 and 72. Mrs. White for 5th and Mr. Gancy (with the paddle) for 6th. Then I went to St. St. Agatha's off of Adams and then St.John's Catholic on 60th and Slauson. Can't recall much more like names and streets though. I'll check some of my old class pictures. We had to cross paths. Cool.

Yeah...they should fry old "Tookie". I read somewhere that one commentator was saying that if everybody could just get off death row for being changed, nobody would die. What would be the point? Change is relative anyway. At least future gang kids will maybe think twice. That will save more lives than people want to admit. Talk soon.

Wow. Gancy! Every time I see a 59 Corvette I think about Gancy. Plus if you went to St. John's you would have known the Zeno twins. Michael Zeno made it to the NBA. Memories!

Thanks for the excellent backgrounder. It's a lot more useful in forming opinions than simply hearing a list of people who just think he's a saint.

I'd avoided having an opinion on this matter (any opinion of mine, by the way, matters not at all in this case), but it's clear this is not just some one-sided story with a Hollywood ending.

I cannot understand why someone of Tookie's purported power would need to personally rob any cornerstore or kill anyone in a motel, when he obviously had hundreds of soldiers that would have done it at first word. I have nothing but sympathy for the victims, I simply do not believe that they are Tookie's victims. I feel sorry for every person who was wronged by Tookie, but I'm thankful for every person he's helped, too. I would be happy if there were a new trial, with modern science and logic prevailing by correcting what I believe to be a great injustice.

If someone wants to kill Tookie they should do it themselves. The State should have no decree of life or death.

Cobb, why do you insist on not dispaying a link to the victims pictures. W/o the pictures, your readers cannot see why Tookie must die on 12/13.

Cobb, sorry, I don't remember the Zeno's but I'm still looking for my old class picture. Anyway, I don't see why anyone should have to see a picture of a victim. It's enough to know it was a human life. Four human lives. How about you substitute your mother, father sister and brother and think about them as his victims. (No disrespect intended.)We hear about victims of senseless violence everyday. And we see pictures of so many people in the paper. We don't have to see them to know they are real. With people who loved them and lives ahead of them. Someone else on another site commented that if Tookie was a Nazi or a Klansman...no amount of childrens books could absolve him of his crime. (And there really is no way to quantify if he really did help anybody, especially the number that his supporters say.) Now that it's a black man we can't let him be accountable. If we want to see ourselves as powerful and equal we can't forget that consequences affect us too. I'm not getting into the disproportionality of the death penalty or the jury system. I've said before that I, (and I only speak for myself), believe he is guilty. We can go back to all the injustices done to blacks by juries and the disproportionate number of blacks in the penal system for days, but this guy has got to go.

The pictures of the victims were redacted in the District Attorney's report. I wouldn't publish them even if they weren't for basically the same reason I wouldn't publish the Nick Berg video. I might curse a bit, but I'm not going to put graphic images out there. I want people to think through this stuff. A picture is not an argument.

I agree on your view of the justice system in light of this. You simply have to deal with this case for what it is, not for cosmic justice.

To: Chazz

If you go to www.tookie.com you can read several post from at risk youth who have thanked Tookie.

If you go to Al Jazeera.com you can read several posts from oppressed muslims who have thanked Osama Bin Laden

Patricia, I dont give a f about the youth who have thanked Tookie. Tookie didnt give a f about those youth until HIS life became at risk. Fine he did his deed during the 20 odd years his life has been extended but his time is up and he needs to pay for his crimes just like everyone else on death row. BTW, I dont have the exact statistics but blacks on death row are actually a minority so the worst of criminals go there and there evidence says he did it. I'm ashamed to be black when I read about people like you who want him alive because he is black. Poison Tookie on the 13th and let him fry in hell everyday after that. Also Tookie site is nothing but a fraud. Talk about the case if he thinks he shouldnt die. Ordinary people like many of us do good deeds everyday because we are good people not because something is at stake. The comments mean nothing unless taken in full context of his life which includes killing four innocent people and attempting to blow up a prison bus full of 30. Kill him now. Fry him in hell and hte world is a better place.

Mr. Jeremy
Your ashamed to be black because of people like me? First and foremost if you are ashamed to be black then, you have some personal issues. If you knew a little more about my background then maybe you could understand why I'm more sympathetic to Mr. Williams(I'm not going to put my business on this board)Killing Mr. Williams is not going to make the world a better place. When Jesus comes back that is when the world will then and only then be better!

To Patricia:
It's obvious you have some very strong opinions about "Tookie" and the death penalty in general. And noone can change your mind. No one should try.

Earlier, I wrote: Someone else on another site commented that if Tookie was a Nazi or a Klansman...no amount of childrens books could absolve him of his crime. (And there really is no way to quantify if he really did help anybody, especially the number that his supporters say.)

You wanted me to look on Tookie's site. Still not convinced and it doesn't matter to me who tells him their story. In fact, I do hope it makes him rest easier as he passes on. What I do think is very analagous, which is why I keep harping on it, is that anybody can make that argument. Maybe YOU should look at some of the results of the Nazi death camp experiments, ie. the hypothermia and Phosgene gas data. While it was gathered in a horrendous way, the data has benefits to medical research and use. So damned "Tookie" and his children's books. Society and the State of California shouldn't let him off the hook just because of a few books.

Oh, Cobb...I loved your essay on the main page. You're an awesome writer and I was so charmed by your memories. You took me right to the very spot on the playground where I played hopscotch and tetherball. The Balwin Theater is where I saw my first Pam Grier movie, "Coffey" (sp?).

Patricia, I'm not ashamed to be black. I'm ashamed when you see thing only in the context of race rather than what is right versus wrong. If we as African-Americans continue to make decisions based on race, then we will not progress. If Tookie were white, I would say he should be executed too. Those books were written only to save his own life. That is the truth behind the man. I hope he enjoys the last days of his stay on this earth because he deserves what the courts and jury gave him. In fact he made his own decisions and now he must face the consequences of his actions. If he doesnt die then none of us, either black or purple, can ever trust that justice is fair. BTW, I think you are the one with the mental problems. You are brainwashed by the people Cobb calls the morally dammed. It is a shame.

Now, now, y'all. Let's be civil. Remember, it affects us only peripherally. We are safe in our homes and hopefully healthy as well. This i a good dialogue...let's not degrade it with personal attacks.

This is what keeps people from getting involved when their voice, whatever it is going to say, needs to be heard. Remember "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" and that is why we need to keep talking and talking and allowing free ideas. Say dat!!!

Chazz I agree with you but it seems like some people (in this case Patricia) no matter what have only one viewpoint. This is about right and wrong, making good decisions instead of bad decisions, and owing up to wrongs instead of running and lying ones way out of them. At the core this is what underpins personal worth.

crips live 4 life

Tupac is dead I hope Tookie can soon join him

Hey Tookie I Believe you are innocent because that makes know sense that why would you waste your time and write 9 books to keep teenagers and young kid out of jail and out of gangs. i believe every1 derseve a second chance forgive but never forget.

Love: Cassandra

I hope Tookie dies a painful death but too bad the State of California will be genorous to him with a differnet drug. They should inject rat poison in Tookie or acid so the viscious punks melts. Then hell can have him for the devil to do what he needs to do. Tookie killed four innocent people and thousands of African-Americans. It is about what is right and wrong. MLK would cringe knowing that the NAACP is supporting Tookie.

Williams victim's family tells of its pain
By Crystal Carreon -- Bee Staff Writer
Published 2:15 am PST Thursday, December 8, 2005
Story appeared on Page A1 of The Bee
The young man had gone West, out to California, far from the Missouri snow and stress of a divorce. But Albert Owens would often call his old home to hear a familiar voice.
"The last thing I remember Al saying to me," recalled Linda Owens, his ex-wife, "was, 'Take care of my babies.'"

Two weeks later, Albert Owens was dead. He was found in the storage room of a 7-Eleven in Whittier, two shotgun blasts in his back. A little more than $100 was taken from the cash register.

More than two decades after Owens' murder, the state of California is scheduled to execute Stanley "Tookie" Williams at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday should final clemency appeals - including a closed-door meeting this morning with the governor - fail.

Williams, 51, co-founder of the infamous Crips street gang in Los Angeles, was condemned for killing Owens in a 1979 robbery and three members of an immigrant family at a motel two weeks later. He has maintained his innocence.

In the weeks leading to the scheduled execution, much has been written and aired about Williams' plight as a condemned man and his "redemption" - his decade-long mission to save youths from gangs.

But members of the Owens family say their anger and pain have become more pronounced as Williams' supporters, in their clamor for clemency, appear to forget the lives Williams stole. They say they have been irrevocably shaped by their loss; some family members have grown estranged in trying to find some peace in the 26-year-old tragedy.

In 1979, Linda Owens was in Willmathsville, Mo., washing the dishes when the phone rang.

"Linda, I want you to sit down," Chuck Owens, her ex-brother-in-law, said. "Al was killed."

Eight-year-old Rebecca and 5-year-old Andrea were standing behind their mother in the kitchen. They watched her crumble, crying over the dishes. About 15 minutes later, Linda Owens explained to her girls that their father had been killed and that police had arrested the people responsible.

"What the hell do you say to kids at that age?" Owens said in an interview this week.

"I felt the kids were upset. I felt it best to leave it alone. They never asked," said Owens, who asked to be identified by her first husband's last name out of lingering concerns for her family's safety.

Albert Owens had been her high school sweetheart. The two had known each other since they were 12, when she helped "that ornery little monkey" with his English homework. They began dating when they were 16 at Ruskin High School in Kansas City. Two years later, they wed.

He stood tall in his crisp Army uniform and clasped his new wife's hand in their 1969 black-and-white wedding photo. In another snapshot, he is seen holding onto 1-year-old Rebecca's tiny hand, caught laughing on Virginia Beach.

Linda Owens watched as the tall, freckled-faced boy with a buzz haircut matured into a husband and father. He doted on his two daughters. He always tried to make his little girls laugh.

Four years into the marriage, the couple separated. They agreed they had married too young. Nine months after their divorce, Albert Owens, 26, had started a new life in California, working at a factory and a part-time shift at the 7-Eleven.

Years later, Linda Owens said it was a mistake to not tell her daughters the entire truth about their father's murder.

The oldest daughter, Rebecca Owens, now 35, remembered that she and her little sister, Andrea, were allowed just one day to grieve for their father. The man who had briefly married their mother at the time of Owens' death had told the girls in vain to call him their dad. She said they were not allowed to talk about their father again. They could not attend his funeral in California.

"As a kid," Rebecca Owens said, "I didn't have time to mourn my dad."

Growing up, she was led to believe that the man responsible had been put to death. Then, in 2001, she said a representative from the California attorney general's office called to gauge whether she would be willing to speak with reporters about some news: Williams had been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. Rebecca Owens said she didn't know who Williams was.

"What I had been told growing up was not the case," she said, "and then to be told that the man who killed my father and three other people was now nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize? I was aghast."

The phone conversation lasted more than three hours, followed by years of probing, reading court transcripts and other legal documents on the case and following press accounts of Williams' "redemption." She has not spoken to her mother since then.

"Over the past four years, it was like losing Dad all over again; the anger was there. All the anger I couldn't feel as a kid, the atrocity of what had happened."

Now, "this guy wants clemency? Maybe my father wanted the same thing; maybe the three members of the family wanted to get up the next morning; maybe the daughter who was here for only a week wanted to see her children again. Why didn't he think about that?"

Andrea Owens, 32, said she has no clear memories of her father. In her mind, she can see a shadow of a man. She cannot remember his laughter.

When she learned that Williams, her father's killer, was still alive decades after a jury had sentenced him to die, she said it felt as though he had gotten away with murder.

"He's done something wrong, and I've been punished for it," she said. "I had to grow up without my father."

The Owens daughters now have children of their own. Rebecca Owens' 7-year-old son, relatives say, looks just like Albert Owens.

Some of the children have heard about their grandfather. Some of them, when they're older, may learn about what happened to him in California and about Williams, the man whose face appears on the news.

On Feb. 28, 1979, Williams and three of his acquaintances, after smoking PCP-laced cigarettes, went looking for a way to get some money. They drove across Los Angeles and stopped at a convenience store where their first robbery attempt failed. A few minutes later, they came upon a 7-Eleven on Whittier Boulevard.

Owens was outside, sweeping the parking lot. Williams and the men approached him, according to the Los Angeles County district attorney's petition against clemency.

Williams pointed a shotgun at Owens' back and walked him to a rear storage room. Owens was forced to lie facedown on the floor.

Williams then chambered the shotgun and fired a round into a security monitor nearby. He loaded the gun a second time and fired into Owens' back. He loaded the gun, again, and fired again.

Two weeks later, Williams broke into Brookhaven Motel in Los Angeles and opened fire on the family who ran the motel, killing 76-year-old Yen-I Yang; Tsai-Shai Yang, 63; and their daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, 43, who was visiting from Taiwan.

In early 1981, Williams was sentenced to die for his crimes.

On Tuesday morning, some members of the Owens family will wait by their phones for a call from the attorney general's office. They expect a call after midnight on the West Coast.

"I will say a silent prayer and hope that Albert's in peace," Linda Owens said. "And then, I'll get up and start the day. Send my 12-year-old to school and go to work."

She said the day will pass like any other day. But maybe, someday, she will make it to California.

"I want to put flowers on my husband's grave, and say good-bye," she said. "Until that's done, it's not over."

http://us.video.aol.com/video.index.adp?mode=2&pmmsid=1439647

The ex-wife of Albert Owens, the murdered convenience store clerk, issued this statement today, saying: "I, Linda Owens, want to build upon Mr. Williams' peace initiative. I invite Mr. Williams to join me in sending a message to all communities that we should all unite in peace. This position of peace would honor my husband's memory and Mr. Williams' work."

tookie dies the sooner the better

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Community leaders Friday called for peace in the city if convicted killer and Crips gang co-founder Stanley Tookie Williams is put to death next week as scheduled.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger heard arguments this week from Williams' lawyers seeking to spare his life but hasn't said if he will grant clemency to the death row inmate condemned for the 1979 killing of four people.

Williams' supporters, from political leaders to the rapper Snoop Dogg, say Williams has turned his life around and become a positive influence in fighting gang violence through his writing. To execute him now, they say, would take away one of the most effective voices urging young people to steer clear of gangs.

Williams, 51, is scheduled to die at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday by lethal injection at San Quentin State Prison.

On Friday, four City Council members urged religious leaders to open their churches to those upset by the case.

Though community opinions about Williams vary, even a small group could provoke widespread civil unrest, said Councilman Bernard Parks, a former police chief. Parks alluded to the 1992 Los Angeles riots that followed the acquittal of white police officers in the beating of black motorist Rodney King.

"All you need is a few to disrupt the entire city," Parks said.

Robin Toma, executive director of the county's Commission on Human Relations, worried that schools could be targeted, though he would not say why.

Despite the concerns, Los Angeles police have received no credible threats of possible violence related to the Williams' case, according to Lt. Paul Vernon. He said police have no plans to deploy more officers.

"We don't want to unduly concern the community over unconfirmed rumors," he said.

If the governor grants clemency, Williams' death sentence would be commuted to life without parole.

You have many who feel that Mr. Williams should die on December 13, 2005. I personally do not feel that Mr. Williams should be killed. Many have argued that by killing Mr. Williams it will bring closer for the four victims family that Mr. Williams is alleged of killing back in 1979. This will not bring closure but rather add another chapter to their stories as with the anniversary of the deaths, they will also have the anniversary of Mr. Williams execution to be a constant memory. Mr. Williams has a family who is suffering as well but, not one of these boards has taken a stand for that. What about the grief his family is enduring at this time of whether or not he is going to live or die? What about them? I have done my part by speaking out against his execution and by saying the petition for Clemency. The only thing that I can do now is pray.

Per the LA Times "At least one of Williams' former homeboys has turned against him. In a recent interview with Associated Press, Jimel Barnes, 52, said, "Tookie really murdered those people."

Williams, he said, "went around South-Central bragging about it."

So we know Tookie if a fraud. Are you not personally offended at the obvious charade? Why should we give a f about Tookie's family. Tookie made the descision for ALL families to suffer. The victim's families had their decision made for them by Tookie. MLK would be ashamed of the NAACP for their manipulative press release. I read in other papers that the Owens family are estranged from each other due to Albert Ownen's murder by Tookie. The wife divorced him before his murder by Tookie so her feelings should be discounted. Morever, the release did not state where she thought Tookie should die or not. Was he paid for the comments selectively used?

Tookie should die. F Tookie. Let him die and then fry in hell until his bones are charred to ashes. Let the poison run through his viens and replace all his blood on the 13th.

First of all.We are not God we have a right to have a opinion.But who is to say that what the penial systems are doing is right the 10 conmadents says that THOU SHOULD NOT KILL,that goes for everyone,I understand that it's they job.I wouldn't want it,they couldn't pay me all the morning in the world.Stop being so neg and learn how to forgive.I understand that he started a violent gang.But I hope when he get there or whereever he is going he as already ask for forgivness.They are going to excute him anyway.Mainly because if the don't every convict on death row will try to use this same concept,and the penial system isn't going to allow this to happen.The death penelty would have to be re-wrote if they did,and know one wants to do this.

Are you suckered by the pamplets he wrote too? They didnt sell but 300 copies according to some article I read. He doesnt appear to be reformed to me only looking out for himself and nobody else. The man is a fraud. Let them kill him on 12/13 and let it be over with. Tookie made his own decision to die when he killed others. Why on earth should we save a man like that?

Williams, 51, was convicted of killing a man during a robbery in February 1979 and of murdering a couple and their daughter at a South Los Angeles motel in March 1979.

He denies committing the murders but has apologized for founding the Crips, a gang prosecutors blamed for thousands of murders in Los Angeles and beyond.

In the defense petition to the state's highest court late Saturday, attorney Verna Wefald told the justices that Los Angeles County prosecutors failed to disclose at trial that witness Alfred Coward was not a U.S. citizen and that he had a violent criminal history. Coward is now in prison in Canada for the murder of a man during a robbery.

"All of the witnesses who implicated Williams were criminals who were given significant incentives to testify against him and ongoing benefits for their testimony," Wefald wrote.

An appropriate sentence for Stanley “Tookie” Williams, convicted four time murderer.

Many others and I believe that the punishment should fit the crime, that is, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Therefore, using this criterion, Tookie should be sentenced to death by SHOTGUNNING, as he sentenced his victims to die by.

I can see it all now, a macabre flight of fancy, with myself cast as the Chief executioner of San Quentin correctional facility.

One hour before the execution, final preparations would be made in the green room, the warden presenting me with hearing protection muffs and a sawed off, Mossberg 935 12 gauge magnum autoloading shotgun. The magazine would contain brass cased, hotloaded 00 buckshot.

“Are you sure you can handle this?” the warden would ask, a review panel having found that lethal injection was much too merciful for those such as Tookie Williams.

“Sure, I’ve dropped many a deer with one of these babies,” I would answer, hanging the muffs around my neck.

“No, that’s not what I mean, do you think you can slaughter inmate Tookie in such a brutal manner?"

“Why not, he killed his victims in the same way.”

“Very good,” the warden would reply, “Your weapon has been provided with four shells, one for each of his victims. The entire procedure is to take five minutes, in order for Tookie Williams to feel the maximum amount of pain for his crimes.”

“Yes sir.”

“Remember that each shot must be felt by the condemned, the last shot being a point-blank blast to the left side of his face, in memory of his victim Ye Chen Lin. Oh yes, and please be certain the final shot is so directed that it blows his brains out.”

“No problem,” I would answer confidently, sitting down in the death chamber with the Mossberg autoloader in my lap, awaiting instructions to carry out the duly ordered execution.

“Executioner, remember also that you must not speak to the condemned, as it is against prison procedure.”

“Yes, sir,” I would answer from my seat.

Later, Tookie would be drug in, kicking and screaming, to the death chamber. He would look at me with sullen eyes as he was strapped in the chair. The warden would pronounce the sentence, and the chamber would be closed.

“You may proceed, executioner,” the warden would remark over an intercom speaker.

I would nod, place the muffs over my ears, rise from my chair, and cock the Mossberg, chambering the first round.

“You’re a sick muthafucker,” Tookie would yell while I would pause to determine where to place the first shot, for maximum prolongation of his agony.

Remaining silent and focusing on the lower part of his legs, I would pull the trigger, shredding the prison uniform and blowing off his left kneecap, flesh, bone and blood flying everywhere. The spent shell would eject to the floor with a metallic clatter; smoke and the smell of burned powder would fill the room. An overhead exhaust fan would come on, ventilating the noxious fumes from the death chamber. Tookie would shriek in pain, his formerly powerful arm muscles struggling against the nylon restraining straps.

The warden would call out, “Hold for one minute.”

I would nod, preventing myself from uttering a word.

A minute would pass.

“You may proceed.”

Having time to decide where to place the second shot, I would direct the muzzle at Tookie’s right arm and pull the trigger. The blast would sever the arm below the elbow as the condemned would thrash about, writhing in exquisite torment as the spent shell bounced off a thick glass window in the death chamber. Blood would shoot in torrents from the remains of his thrashing arm; the severed lower part still strapped to the arm of the chair.

“Hold for thirty seconds,” would come over the speaker while the exhaust fan would hum in the background.

I would turn to the warden with a quizzical expression.

“He’s running out of blood, at this rate he’ll be dead before you blow his head off.”

I would nod.

“Proceed.”

The muzzle would be aimed as to produce a painful lower gutshot, the 00-buck blasting in a wide pattern, nearly severing his penis and lower spine; the third shell casing bouncing off a wall before landing on the floor of the death chamber.

“Hold for thirty.”

Blood would be dripping to the floor from Tookie’s wounds and spattered about the death chamber; I would pause to wipe blood from my shooting glasses as the smoke cleared.

My glasses replaced, the bored warden would remark in monotone, “You may again proceed executioner.”

“Finish me off you cruel muthafucker!” Tookie would yell with his remaining strength.

“With pleasure,” I would retort with a vicious smile, momentarily losing control and violating prison procedure for the first time in my career as Chief executioner of San Quentin correctional facility.

Calmly aiming point blank at the left side of his face, I would move the checkered buttstock of the sawed-off Mossberg high to my right, so the kill shot would enter his skull at an oblique angle. The trigger would be pulled, the final brass shell casing ejecting automatically. The blast would erase the left side of Tookie’s face; his brains erupting through the skull from the rear of his head, splattering like red, white and gray Jell-O over the green walls of the death chamber.

Slumped in the chair, a dying Tookie would gurgle blood from his mouth for a minute or two; I feeling remorse for having spoke to him in his final moments.

As the smoke cleared the chamber would be opened for a physician to pronounce Tookie dead. The doctor, not really caring, would look over the mangled remains and say, “Well, if Tookie Williams isn’t dead, I’ll bet dollars to donuts that he wishes he was.”

The warden would walk in, stare at me and say, “Christ, what a gory mess, look at you, you’re practically covered in blood from the condemned!”

Yeah, it’s a good thing Tookie didn’t have AIDS or hepatitis,” I would answer nonchalantly, quickly adding, “Sorry warden, I violated procedure by speaking to the condemned.”

“Don’t worry about it, I don’t blame you, he was a mouthy piece of shit; were I you, I’d have punched him for his smart remarks.”

With those words, the execution party would leave, with other death row prisoners assigned to remove the body and disinfect the death chamber.

Later, the warden looking on in sheer disgust, the remains of Tookie Williams would be carried off from San Quentin in an unmarked coroner’s van, to be dumped into San Francisco Bay from the Golden Gate Bridge.

Stay TRUE to your heart, Stanley Tookie Williams. Let those people on the lists running their mouth(s). Only person can judge him is "The man from the upstair"(heaven)Not y'all people in the earth. If he has forgiven his past; then it done.

Tookie Williams is a coward. Afraid to die Tookie? Afraid to end your life like the ones you ended without remorse? Afraid to admit the truth. Only hours until your time on this planet is up and you should have been ridded of a long time ago. Hells bells are rining for you. The devil will have fun with you coward. Let the poison run through your body until you get a cold sweat and your brain freezes over. I look foward to the picture of your corpse on TV. Good luck in hell coward.

cobb, you are an idiot. Here I am a whiteboy and I believe the innocence of Tookie. You are a brother and you're condemming Tookie. Your a waste of skin. Learn to read and read all the legal documentation on the trial and cinviction of Tookie. You'll see he's innocent. Your living proof why abortion should be legal you dumb xxx.

Hey tigershit,

Though my name is Gonzalez, I'm not Mexican, and your pidgin english leaves much to be desired, you uneducated, posturing douchebag. Your grammar and all that stinks to high heaven.

For your information, I am Spanish, like Emporor Trajan was; my father was born in Franco's Spain. He has hazel eyes, and before his hair turned gray, his hair was brown. My mother was a German American from the state of Pennsylvania. I have blue eyes and sandy blond hair. I was born in Latrobe, Pennsylvania in 1959 and educated at a private Catholic school.

That said, Tookie Williams is a murderous xx who is as guilty as sin, and if you are a white man, you are a very poor excuse for one.

Five will get me ten that you are a xxx masquerading as a white man.

Am I right, "xxx"; xxx

I have no use for ignorant xx like you, and like you, I detest xxx . I especially detest them referring to themselves as Latino. Spaniards and Italians are Latinos, not greasy, xxx.

As for you, be a little more discerning when you open your big mouth, ergo, before engaging your pea sized brain.

Look pretty xxx stupid now, don't you xxx?

xxx, (do you know what that means, xxx?)

Frank Gonzalez

I forgot to add:

Tigerxxx: you have the unmitigated audacity to say that xxx Tookie is innocent?

What about the four people he killed, one white, and three chinese? One was a child, her face blown off by buckshot.

Answer me that, asshole, just look at the xxx EVIDENCE you liberal kike.

Yeah, it was circumstantial, BUT - it was HIS shotgun implicated in the killings, and he was fingered by his ACCOMPLICES.

Tough call, but that xxx animal is guilty, and the odds are that he will finally DIE, in a lot more merciful way than his victims did.

So long, xxx , read my words and gnash your teeth, that is if you even know what the word "gnash" means.

Frank

Frank you're an idiot, you have the nerve to insult Mexicans and call Black people the "n" word something you wouldn't dare do face to face.And before you type back and lie and say you call Black people the "N" word to their faces everyday (as all net racist do)prove it.
If you're so big and bad Frank, Walk up to any 6'3 inch Black man, call him the "n" word, film it, then post it in this room with your response to my calling you a coward, bet you won't, you know why Frank? Because you're less than a man, you're a "I wish I didn't have an ethnic last name coward"

You're whats called a net racist, thats someone who hides behind a computer screen and types shit he's too afraid to say in person. I know many people from Spain and they consider Mexicans their Latin brothers, Especially the well educated Mexicans from Mexico City. While its true they correct people who think they are Mexican, they don't try and insult anyone.

With that said, I personally think "Tookie" is guilty and should pay for his crimes, even I he didn't kill those people, think about all the killings he did commit that he just wasnt caught for

In closing Mr Gonzalez, stop calling other races names, something you know you don't do in person, stop thinking you're better than the "Mexicans" and stop wishing you'd become accepted as white.
You must have gotten your ass beat daily in school to be so resentful. You just never fit in huh?

p.s. Frank, when you type your response to this posting, which you have to do because you're an idiot, remember that at the end of the day people of all races will always do whats right.

Oh yeah Francisco GONZALEZ (Laughing)My hair is blonder and my eyes bluer than yours will ever be, and i'm not Jewish!

Gonzalez you dumb piece of xxx. You aren't German. Their isn't any way in hell you can be. I'm German and I'm currently living in Germany. Therefore you are just a dumbass wannabe claiming to be German. Hell, Spain is worse than Mexico. At least Mexico doesn't raise terrorist. Hell if Hitler would have gotten rid of the Spanish instead of the Jews the world would be better off today. Hell maybe he should have just got rid of your xxx loving mother, we wouldn't have to put up with your ignorance. I hope one day a So called "nigger" hunts you down and takes care of you, you xxx wannabe. Worry about the terrorist in fucked up spain killing hundreds of children before you worry about one innocent man. Spain is turning out to be a mini Iraq. If the U.S. is so full of bad people than take your terrorist loving ass to Spicville. Don't think about coming to Germany. If I ever come face to face with you, i'll be living on death row.

How Painful is Lethal Injection?

Lethal injection may not be the painless, smooth death as has often been portrayed in the media--or communicated to death row inmates.

But Dr. Edward Brunner, an emeritus professor of anesthesia at Northwestern University Medical School in Chicago, said the information is critical. Dr. Brunner, who is a death penalty opponent, said injection can be painful, but it depends on the dosage and the training of those who administer it.

"The drugs, if not given properly, can cause a precipitate - like a solid gel - which will block the needle and not allow the flow of the medication. If the drug doses are not proper, the drug used to put the patient to sleep can wear off and the drug used to paralyze you can act, and the patient can be fully sensitive.

"The final drug is potassium chloride, which stops the heart. It is very caustic and burning if it is administered when the person is awake. It would be very devastating and painful," said Dr. Brunner, 74.

Tookie dead....,

Cobb,
Where you at?!!! Your blog has denegrated to the point where sick, twisted, rambling idiots are proliferating like rabbits. Calling people N***ers, wetbacks, spics. Attacking each other personally and not focusing on what really matters. That's not what this blog is about. That's not what you're about. I'm all for free speech but come on guys use some, discretion and show how intelligent conversation really works. I know you can.

Anyway...Tookie's clememcy petition was denied today. I believe the denial was appropriate. What you said is right Cobb. The books that will really do kids a service are the ones written by those of us who set an example out here free...the ones who got through college, or shit, just work an honest day digging ditches or sweeping floors without killing anybody first.

I will pray for Tookie. His redemption should be in heaven. I think God will forgive him but the State of California shouldn't.

AMEN IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD. TOOKIE FRIES IN HELL. MAY HIS BODY CHAR.

Tookie will always be a hero. Cobb says he knew The realTookie. Well if thats true than you should be in prison with him. If he was such a terrorist like you say than you would have had to be one too. I ran with the gangs in Cali. I know how it is. Otherwise your just spreading shit. That means your here telling hear-say bullshit. I'm so discusseded at how everyone came together on 9/11 to cry about fellow americans dying but now you want an american to die. Hypocrits. Thats what america is. I used to say God blees america, but know I say God let america burn in hell. A country that is built on religion but takes it out of schools, courtrooms, pledge of allegiance, and justice because of non-americans don't want it. Thou shall not kill. The sorry piece of shit government wants to killTookie. Then I say you have to kill the executioner, Arm-mold Shittynegger, bush and all the soldiers coming back from iraq, and all their executioners and so on until there is nobody left. Sounds stupid don't it? But that is reality. There is no such thing as legal murder. So how can one man kill another for murder and call it justice. It's all american bullshit. Now don't get me wrong. I'm an american in Germany working for the piece of shit government. I served in the military. I see shit you average everyday people don't see. I know the truth behind alot of stuff that our government is responsible for. I used to be a proud american, but not after this bullshit. I have had enough. Sorry to sound so fucked up but someone has to tell it like it is. Our government lies to us everyday. Alot of you are dumb enough to believe it. I hope they prove Tookie's innocence in the end and fry the fucking cock sucking U.S. government.

let him at least have life in prison but not murder. That is not how god would solve problems christan or not! The people that kill tookie are juts as worst. Amagin it being u...FREE TOOKIE

Well Mr. Jeremy you got what you wished for Mr. Williams death.

Hell will be getting a lot more souls after today. I hope gvernor shittynegger is the first to go. A non-american judging whether to save a innocent americans life. The U.S. is even more fucked up than i thought.

Tiger, you're probably heading for a dishonorable discharge. My advice to you is to find a comfy home in Dusseldorf and join the Green Party or something. Last time I heard, they took American haters.

I bumped into Tookie, but I didn't run with him. I'm a Crip hater just like you're an America hater. When Crips show up at the party, they mess it up for everyone. You don't have to run with dogs to see what kind of damage they do first hand. You act like only bangers have seen shootouts at Fatburger.

Anyway, I'm going to clean up some of the garbage in here, and will only leave the profanity for people who leave something like a real name and email address. Free speech means you have to use your real name.

Now we know which side we're on.

...less than 5 hours before tookie is put to death.... right or wrong....

I am an american. I am not an american hater. I just hate hypocricy. How can the U.S. say murder is illegal but have a death penalty. There is no such thing as legal murder. If the goverment can commit murder than why can't everyone. Go to Iraq. You'll see the real america. Killing innocent men, women, and even children as young as newborn. But that is legal? Is this the country you're proud of Mr. Cobb? I'm not. I've seen the truth, the reality that the government is hiding and telling everyone lies about. How about all the soldiers that have been killed fighting for oil? Don't think it's about weapons of mass distruction. Hell we can find little 'ol saddam in a whole in the middle of Iraq, but can't find these weapons. Thats because there were none. We,re just pawns in a game that the government decided to play. Hell why didn't they go take care of it them selves. I have no fear. My real name is Eddie. I hate the polisies made by the american government and the people of the government that allow this slaughtering to happen not americans in general. I am pro-life. Do you feel Tookie got a fair trial? I sure in hell don't. I read the court papers from both sides. He was framed and screwed, point blank.

Die Tookie.

Please. Tookie framed? For what purpose?

I happen to read a lot of non-fiction as well as fictional spy stuff. I have no problem imagining a great deal of dirty tricks done by America and Americans. I don't pretend that the American government is all morally above suspicion, but I am very realistic about what it could, would and might do. Either way, it's a completely different set of people and organizations that are dealing with Iraq and dealing with Tookie. Even my 10 year old knows the difference between the executive branch and the judicial branch. We'll talk about oil and Iraq somewhere else. It has nothing to do with the Crips in California.

So here's the bottom line question. If Tookie were released to the street, there would be a race in the Bloods to kill him. So is it better that he's killed by Bloods or by the State?

Secondly, who would you kill for and why?

I don't think Tookie should die but THEY have sealed his fate...Maybe, we should honor the victims' and Tookie's deaths as a sign that we should learn to love each other and teach it to our children.

In the history of the US, there has been thousands of white men who where guilty of murder and aquitted with smiles on thier faces. Many whites where outraged when OJ Simpson was aquitted. Blacks in America have been damaged by the centuries of torture by whites. Tookie is a product of a plan that has been moving since slavery(The Willie Lynch Syndrome). Whites have hi-jacked pieces of the world and are running them as they see fit. THEY will kill who they want. We have problems right here at home. There are children growing up every day in America, that will end up like Tookie, mostly black. America does not want to face these problems because it is not apart of her agenda. Infact, blacks in prison/on death row/sturng out/dead is apart of her agenda. This is what Tookie should have realized before going to prison. I am glad that he did spead the word to the outside before they carried out thier PLANS with him. In the words of Tupac Shakur "ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE ME NOW".

Let's say "Tookie" had murdered YOUR loved ones brutally and without mercy. Would all you "let Tookie live" assholes be so sanctimonious then? Or would you want justice? If you say youd want him to live then either you are A) a liar or B) You never loved your family member victims enough to see justice done. So let the piece of shit die. I am a christian and after 25 years it's time for "eye for an eye". And may God grant him the mercy that we can't ....

Let's say "Tookie" had murdered YOUR loved ones brutally and without mercy. Would all you "let Tookie live" assholes be so sanctimonious then? Or would you want justice? If you say youd want him to live then either you are A) a liar or B) You never loved your family member victims enough to see justice done. So let the piece of shit die. I am a christian and after 25 years it's time for "eye for an eye". And may God grant him the mercy that we can't ....

I believe that is was wrong. Yes, he did a terrible thing. But 1. he was friends with the person that gave him the sentence, 2, he could have just died in preson instead of waiting 24 or so years in prison.Also, i heard that one of the inmates during his injection said that he had new evidence, but did they say anything about that new evidence, yes or no. I'm not sure. You government or who ever people dont even know if he did it or not. So how in the world are you going to give someone a death row. It's just so sad. And that is all i have to say.

What the hell is wrong with you people that support tookie? This man murdered four people in cold blood!He never gave them a chance for redemption, he never gave them a chance to live!
Is this how little you value human lives, are childrens books worth more then flesh and blood? You preech and preech about saving tookie but never have I seen anyone supporting him say what he did was wrong. I have never been more disgusted in my life. Sure the man was nominated for a nobel prize, so was Hitler. Would you excuse hitler if he was given a nobel prize, I think not. When human lives are worth as little as a hundred twenty dollars or a quick high I want to see you argue that. What I want to know is why you people that support Tookie value life so little. This man did not deserve to live after what he did. Im not the one to judge him. He's in God's hands now.

Tuesday, December 13, 2005
SAN QUENTIN, Calif. - Convicted killer Stanley Tookie Williams, the Crips gang co-founder whose case stirred a national debate about capital punishment versus the possibility of redemption, was executed Tuesday morning.

Williams, 51, died at 12:35 a.m. Officials at San Quentin State Prison seemed to have trouble injecting the lethal mixture into his muscular arm. As they struggled to find a vein, Williams looked up repeatedly and appeared frustrated, shaking his head at supporters and other witnesses.

"You doing that right?" it sounded as if he asked one of the men with a needle.

After he was declared dead, his supporters shouted in unison: "The state of California just killed an innocent man," as they walked out of the chamber.

The case became the state's highest-profile execution in decades. Hollywood stars and capital punishment foes argued that Williams' sentence should be commuted to life in prison because he had made amends by writing children's books about the dangers of gangs and violence.

In the days leading up to the execution, state and federal courts refused to reopen his case. Monday, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied Williams' request for clemency, suggesting that his supposed change of heart was not genuine because he had not shown any real remorse for the killings committed by the Crips.

"Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

Williams was condemned in 1981 for gunning down convenience store clerk Albert Owens, 26, at a 7-Eleven in Whittier and killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple's daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Williams claimed he was innocent.

Witnesses at the trial said he boasted about the killings, stating "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes, according to the transcript that the governor referenced in his denial of clemency.

About 1,000 death penalty opponents and a few death penalty supporters gathered outside the prison to await the execution. Singer Joan Baez, M A S H actor Mike Farrell and the Rev. Jesse Jackson were among the celebrities who protested the execution.

"Tonight is planned, efficient, calculated, antiseptic, cold-blooded murder and I think everyone who is here is here to try to enlist the morality and soul of this country," said Baez, who sang "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" on a small plywood stage set up just outside the gates.

A contingent of 40 people who had walked the approximately 25 miles from San Francisco held signs calling for an end to "state-sponsored murder." But others, including Debbie Lynch, 52, of Milpitas, said they wanted to honor the victims.

"If he admitted to it, the governor might have had a reason to spare his life," Lynch said.

Former Crips member Donald Archie, 51, was among those attending a candlelight vigil outside a federal building in Los Angeles. He said he would work to spread Williams' anti-gang message.

"The work ain't going to stop," said Archie, who said he was known as "Sweetback" as a young Crips member. "Tookie's body might lay down, but his spirit ain't going nowhere. I want everyone to know that, the spirit lives."

Among the celebrities who took up Williams' cause were Jamie Foxx, who played the gang leader in a cable movie about Williams; rapper Snoop Dogg, himself a former Crip; Sister Helen Prejean, the nun depicted in "Dead Man Walking"; and Bianca Jagger. During Williams' 24 years on death row, a Swiss legislator, college professors and others nominated him for the Nobel Prizes in peace and literature.

"There is no part of me that existed then that exists now," Williams said recently during an interview with The Associated Press.

"I haven't had a lot of joy in my life. But in here," he said, pointing to his heart, "I'm happy. I am peaceful in here. I am joyful in here."

Williams' statements did not sway some relatives of his victims, including Lora Owens, Albert Owens' stepmother. In the days before his death, she was among the outspoken advocates who argued the execution should go forward.

"(Williams) chose to shoot Albert in the back twice. He didn't do anything to deserve it. He begged for his life," she said during a recent interview. "He shot him not once, but twice in the back. ... I believe Williams needs to get the punishment he was given when he was tried and sentenced."

It truly is a sad day whether you were for or against Mr. Williams execution. As mostly everyone on this board is aware I was against his execution. It's sad whenever someone day's before Jesus Christ deems their life to be over!

Tuesday, December 13, 2005
SAN QUENTIN, Calif. - Convicted killer Stanley Tookie Williams, the Crips gang co-founder whose case stirred a national debate about capital punishment versus the possibility of redemption, was executed Tuesday morning.

Williams, 51, died at 12:35 a.m. Officials at San Quentin State Prison seemed to have trouble injecting the lethal mixture into his muscular arm. As they struggled to find a vein, Williams looked up repeatedly and appeared frustrated, shaking his head at supporters and other witnesses.

"You doing that right?" it sounded as if he asked one of the men with a needle.

After he was declared dead, his supporters shouted in unison: "The state of California just killed an innocent man," as they walked out of the chamber.

The case became the state's highest-profile execution in decades. Hollywood stars and capital punishment foes argued that Williams' sentence should be commuted to life in prison because he had made amends by writing children's books about the dangers of gangs and violence.

In the days leading up to the execution, state and federal courts refused to reopen his case. Monday, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied Williams' request for clemency, suggesting that his supposed change of heart was not genuine because he had not shown any real remorse for the killings committed by the Crips.

"Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

Williams was condemned in 1981 for gunning down convenience store clerk Albert Owens, 26, at a 7-Eleven in Whittier and killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple's daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Williams claimed he was innocent.

Witnesses at the trial said he boasted about the killings, stating "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes, according to the transcript that the governor referenced in his denial of clemency.

About 1,000 death penalty opponents and a few death penalty supporters gathered outside the prison to await the execution. Singer Joan Baez, M A S H actor Mike Farrell and the Rev. Jesse Jackson were among the celebrities who protested the execution.

"Tonight is planned, efficient, calculated, antiseptic, cold-blooded murder and I think everyone who is here is here to try to enlist the morality and soul of this country," said Baez, who sang "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" on a small plywood stage set up just outside the gates.

A contingent of 40 people who had walked the approximately 25 miles from San Francisco held signs calling for an end to "state-sponsored murder." But others, including Debbie Lynch, 52, of Milpitas, said they wanted to honor the victims.

"If he admitted to it, the governor might have had a reason to spare his life," Lynch said.

Former Crips member Donald Archie, 51, was among those attending a candlelight vigil outside a federal building in Los Angeles. He said he would work to spread Williams' anti-gang message.

"The work ain't going to stop," said Archie, who said he was known as "Sweetback" as a young Crips member. "Tookie's body might lay down, but his spirit ain't going nowhere. I want everyone to know that, the spirit lives."

Among the celebrities who took up Williams' cause were Jamie Foxx, who played the gang leader in a cable movie about Williams; rapper Snoop Dogg, himself a former Crip; Sister Helen Prejean, the nun depicted in "Dead Man Walking"; and Bianca Jagger. During Williams' 24 years on death row, a Swiss legislator, college professors and others nominated him for the Nobel Prizes in peace and literature.

"There is no part of me that existed then that exists now," Williams said recently during an interview with The Associated Press.

"I haven't had a lot of joy in my life. But in here," he said, pointing to his heart, "I'm happy. I am peaceful in here. I am joyful in here."

Williams' statements did not sway some relatives of his victims, including Lora Owens, Albert Owens' stepmother. In the days before his death, she was among the outspoken advocates who argued the execution should go forward.

"(Williams) chose to shoot Albert in the back twice. He didn't do anything to deserve it. He begged for his life," she said during a recent interview. "He shot him not once, but twice in the back. ... I believe Williams needs to get the punishment he was given when he was tried and sentenced."

It truly is a sad day whether you were for or against Mr. Williams execution. As mostly everyone on this board is aware I was against his execution. It's sad whenever someone dies before Jesus Christ deems their life to be over!

Tookie and other gang members or piss poor examples of a man. They never operateby themselves but at least 2 or more. Total weak punks, my cousin makes Tookie look like a weak punk in his best day and would kick his ass hand to hand, but of course Tookie waould run and get his gun, pipe, or brick..BECAUSE HE IS NOT A MAN.

Tookie and other gang members or piss poor examples of a man. They never operate by themselves but at least 2 or more. Total weak punks, my cousin makes Tookie look like a weak punk in his best day and would kick his ass hand to hand, but of course Tookie waould run and get his gun, pipe, or brick..BECAUSE HE IS NOT A MAN.

Tookie and other gang members or piss poor examples of a man. They never operate by themselves but at least 2 or more. Total weak punks, my cousin makes Tookie look like a weak punk in his best day and would kick his ass hand to hand, but of course Tookie waould run and get his gun, pipe, or brick..BECAUSE HE IS NOT A MAN.

''I'm not culpable. I'm not guilty.''

-- Stanley ''Tookie'' Williams

The only problem here is that it took too long to kill him, and that’s appeals and all the perks these murderers get. They forget about the victims and we spend millions of dollars for these murderers to play around with the system. YES! All these punks find God in jail.... who wouldn’t they don’t have anything else to do in there. I find it a riot that these murderers are allowed to write books and make a profit...means while the victims family get squat! And NO! he shouldn’t get life in jail… we already waste enough tax payers money.

Thank you so much Cobb, for stirring up such a wonderful forum for debate. I happened on this site anout 11 days ago after I saw a news story about "Tookie". I wanted to know what people were thinking and I added my thoughts. It was great to get to know your work and peer into your own talents and insights.

I must say, I was very restless last night. I was torn between my firm belief that "Tookie" should die and my sorrow for him and the victims...all victims (gangbangers too) of gang violence. I prayed that his soul would find peace and that his God would give him the redemption he so adamantly believed in. Mostly, I prayed for me. That my feelings and my anger and my sense of revenge and my bloodlust would be put to rest as well and that I would be forgiven for whatever is not well with my own soul.

This debate will go on and on. But I won't be in it. This girl is moving on, for now. It sounds hypocritical but I'm worried. I don't know what to think anymore. I'm a lawyer, an african american lawyer, who has always believed and trusted in the death penalty even with it's lenghty and admittedly flawed process. But I've never talked about it like this. So I want to thank you all for making me think. And think and think.

Cobb you are the bomb. I'm still going to look for those Virginia Road class pictures.

Hi folks here is some food for thought. Was it just to end Tookie Williams life for the crimes he committed? What is the purpose of punishment? Is punishment a mechanism for facilitating vengence for those who have been wrongly injured? Alternatively is punishment a means for correcting behavior? It is most likely that those of us who believe puinshment should facilitate our vengence see Mr. Williams death as justice served. To illistrate, if someone wrongly killed a member of my family I might feel like that executing those responsible would be the only way to find an equitable means of closure to the whole ordeal.
However, people also see punishment as a method by which we correct the behavior of those who act incorrectly in our society. For example, your dog poops on the carpet. In response, you rub their nose in it, spank them, chastize them and send them outside. You do this, not to be cruel, but to communicate to the dog what behavior is offensive and to correct the dogs behavior, so as not to have any more poop on your carpet. If your dog stops leaving you gifts on the floor, would you still punish the dog after the dog began acting correctly? What purpose would it serve? Would obtaining vengence from the dog make you feel better? In the end, would your problem be solved?
I agree murder is far more serious than a misbehaving canine. Still by executing MR. Williams or anyone in the last few years for that matter, have we lowered the murder rate? What have we net solved by executing people? Is it that executions just make some of us vengful people feel better about something that has went terribly wrong or is it that we are lowering crime rates?
So of some of you are probably saying right now, "yeah, yeah, another egghead with a buch of educated bulll__ogna." For that group I pose the following thought. When is the last time you have had a THOUGHT and asked questions about problems and tried to solve them, or do you like to go with the crowd because it is easy let someone else think for YOU.
To end, Tookie Williams died to make allot of vengful people feel better about the terrible acts he committed. We as a society have accomplished little to nothing. Execept kill a changed man who tried to solve some of our societies problems. The killing of Williams to show killing is wrong has not lowered the crime rate.

The society we are left with is, in a way Tookies vengence on us all.

This thread on Tookie has been one of the most enlightening, in that it dispels the idea that the issue of Tookie's fate, among the general population, was cut along racial lines. Clearly, criminals and criminal gangs are rejected by Black, White, Brown, Red, and Yellow America, because they are criminal - regardless of the color of skin the criminals happen to be wearing. Tookie's crimes seem to have had - and still have - the partisanship of only a few people, just as the crimes of the KKK and the Brownsheets always will have. What became mostly redeemed in this whole thing is the fact that very few Americans have a racist agenda, especially one that they will use to espouse or accomodate crime. And they know red herrings when they see one. XXXXXXXXXXXX

That brings up the subject of the absurdities which attended Tookie's 'redemption', which were more along the philosophical lines of P.T. Barnum. If Tookie had been nominated for the Nobel Prize for Chemistry because some lawyer poured root beer over ice cream and then claimed Tookie had invented the root beer float, it could have been no worse. What Tookie's lawyers needed to do was come up with some credible defense against the crimes themselves, which, given over 20 years to do so, they never did. XXXXXXXXXXXX

The subjective issue of the death penalty is separate. It is certain that, the guilt or innocence of any particular party aside, the victims in the Williams case were butchered by someone. The appropriateness of punishment for such crimes will be debated endlessly, but the emotionalism I've seen on blogs, on both sides of the issue, has led to some ludicrous statements. Conversely, meritworthy and reasoned approaches can be seen in both camps. I believe that the advantage goes to the death-penalty advocates, for one reason: Too often, wanton killers are released by politicians whose IQ and hat size are both 4. An example is the release of a (double) thrill-killer by a former Governor of Arizona, on the grounds that the killer had taken college courses while in prison and had therefore shown self-improvement through education. It was subsequently pointed out to the Governor that the killer was a Yale graduate at the time he committed the murders. And such examples are legion, and the released killers often kill again. The death penalty at least protects us from the self-declared genius of arrogant politicians and La La Wood Liberals, neither of which Arnold happened to be.

why does tookie williams get more coverage than RICHARD PRYOR when he died last week?

I'm relieved!

Solution, Lets execute the Politicians !!!

*********WHY ARNOLD KILLED TOOKIE****************

In the end, we can only assume the decision wasn't so "agonizing" after all. Last night Stan Tookie Williams was legally lynched by the state of California, at the behest of Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger who denied Williams' appeal for clemency. The Governor deemed that a man who had been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize five times and brokered gang truces from Newark to South Central was not worthy to walk and breathe among us.

Stan's case for clemency was so compelling it was articulated by people from Desmond Tutu to Snoop Dogg, and yet, watching Schwarzenegger in action has been to observe the nexus of cold-hearted political calculation and cowardice.

Williams' Attorney John Harris challenged the governor to meet with Tookie, saying to the San Francisco Chronicle, "It's impossible to me to believe that if you had met Stanley Williams and spent time with him, that you would not believe in his personal redemption." But that would require a courage the Governor has never demonstrated.

Unlike the movie tough guy always ready to look his victims in the eye -- a quip at the ready -- before shooting, stabbing, or beheading them, Arnold made his decision at safe remove, hanging out this weekend at his son's soccer game, his face a waxy mask of carefree detachment, while Tookie's supporters organized, marched, chanted and prayed themselves hoarse.

When it finally came time for Arnold to announce his personal judgment that Stan Williams should die, tragedy became farce. The Governor's office released an ugly scandalous diatribe that qualifies as nothing less than hate-speech.

As he -- or his script doctor -- wrote:

"The dedication of Williams' book Life in Prison casts significant doubt on his personal redemption. This book was published in 1998, several years after Williams' redemptive experience. Specifically the book is dedicated to Nelson Mandela, Angela Davis, Malcolm X, Assata Shakur, Geronimo Ji Jaga Pratt, Ramona Africa, John Africa, Leonard Peltier, George Jackson, Mumia Abu Jamal, and the countless other men, women, and youths, who have to endure the hellish oppression of living behind bars. The mix of individuals on this list is curious. Most have violent pasts and some have been convicted of committing heinous murders including the killing of law enforcement. But the inclusion of George Jackson on this list defies reason and is a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems."

For Tookie, all of these folks, from Mandela, to Malcolm, to Assata, are one and the same: people of color who strove for liberation in the darkest of circumstances. For Schwarzenegger, the whole lot is the same as well: people who are his political enemies because they refused to be broken. Notice the singling out of George Jackson, author of Soledad Brother, a book for which there is no evidence Schwarzenegger has so much as skimmed. Jackson was someone who despite being framed for his political activism never stopped organizing. That is the person Schwarzenegger wants to kill by executing Tookie.

Later, Arnold passes judgment on Williams' very redemption, writing, "Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise? . . . Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings there can be no redemption." In other words, because Williams has consistently defended his own innocence, he should die. But as Tookie once said, "Many people expect me to apologize for crimes I didn't commit--just to save my life. Of course I want to live, but not by having to lie."

While not surprising Arnold did not have the courage to face Tookie and spew this nonsense to his face, it certainly would have been incredible theatre. In fact, it would have been something of a reunion. In the late 1970s, Arnold and Tookie, about fifty life times ago, admired each other's biceps on Muscle Beach in Venice, California. "Your arms are like thighs!" Arnold grinned.

Amazing the difference thirty years makes.

In that time, Arnold rode his muscles and Teutonic good looks from Hollywood stardom to the Governor's mansion. Yes, he had a spotty past including many allegations of sexual assault and drug abuse. But he passed that off as youthful indiscretion, claimed that he had changed, and a pliant media were happy to believe that Arnold was worthy of forgiveness and redemption.

Tookie, like Arnold, also fashioned an unlikely political career. But his began not with Hollywood riches but as the target of the tough-on-crime laws of the Clinton-Bush years which saw the nation's prison population balloon from more than one to two million. He was convicted of murder in a manner that would make Strom Thurmond proud, called a "Bengal tiger" by a prosecutor who engineered an all-white jury to make sure the "Crip founder" found San Quentin. While Arnold cozied up to the Bush and Kennedy clans, Tookie read dictionaries in solitary, wrote letters to gang kids in LA, and became that most dangerous of political beings: a Black leader in racist America.

In one of his final interviews he said, "So, as long as I have breath, I will continue to do what I can to proliferate a positive message throughout this country and abroad to youths everywhere, of all colors or gender and geographical area, and I will continue to do what I can to help. I want to be a part of the, you know, the solution."

Now another tragedy, along with the murders of Albert Owens, Yen-I Yang, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, and Yu-Chin Yang Lin, has taken place because Stan Tookie has been put to death. But the tragedy is not theirs to bear alone.

Tonight children are being born to mothers without health insurance, in neighborhoods politicians don't enter without SWAT teams, news cameras, and latex gloves. The political class has already branded these kids as human waste. But many of them could have found another path, because Stanley Tookie Williams would have been there to intervene in their lives and show another way.

Now it's up to those of us who stood with Tookie to keep on pushing. This is Schwarzenegger's "mission accomplished" moment for his right wing, pro-death base. But his "mission" will fail. He is part of a 21st century set of rulers who have repeatedly shown, whether in Baghdad or New Orleans, that they are unfit to rule. Their brutality will be met with resistance in the tradition of Nelson Mandela, Angela Davis, Malcolm X, Leonard Peltier, George Jackson... and Stanley Tookie Williams.

While it may be true that this man was involved in all sorts of criminal activity prior to his arrest, it is also true that he is entitled to the same legal protections afforded us all in this society. This includes having a jury of his peers, Tookie did not. This also included having credible witnesses; as i understand it information regarding his alleged acts were provided to at least one person for their review by a detective prior to his testimony against the brother. The list of injustices go on and on.
I do not know who committed this crime, and looks like we all have to move on with such questions unanswered. But i encourage you to set your biases aside and ask yourself how would you like to be treated if the shoe was on the other foot. I believe such an intelligent individual as yourself would be outraged at the actions of the justice system were it you standing trial. Tookie did not get a fair trial. That is the bottom line.

While it may be true that this man was involved in all sorts of criminal activity prior to his arrest, it is also true that he is entitled to the same legal protections afforded us all in this society. This includes having a jury of his peers, Tookie did not. This also included having credible witnesses; as i understand it information regarding his alleged acts were provided to at least one person for their review by a detective prior to his testimony against the brother. The list of injustices go on and on.
I do not know who committed this crime, and looks like we all have to move on with such questions unanswered. But i encourage you to set your biases aside and ask yourself how would you like to be treated if the shoe was on the other foot. I believe such an intelligent individual as yourself would be outraged at the actions of the justice system were it you standing trial. Tookie did not get a fair trial. That is the bottom line.

Tookie got a fair trial. He and his lawyers had over 24 years to come up with new evidence and the evidence that put him where in his position was rock solid. Jury of peers including an African-American. Every time we try to place the race card it does nothing but set us back and makes blacks look dumb. Tookie's fate was a result of his own decisions. Personal responsibility is what it is all about.