Cobb

So you just refer to wynton marsalis as being old school. i agree. but marsalis, murray, and crouch (all old school), all refer to negro culture rather than "black" culture. in fact, i consider them (along with ralph ellison) to be negro nationalists.

what say you?

I recognize that Murray has it in for Malcolm X, and I if it comes the possibility that I must make a choice, I probably would choose Murray. A couple reasons.

1) Malcolm doesn't resonate culturally. His aesthetic was all wrapped up in the religion of Islam, and I can't go there.

2) If it takes work to make people take the leap from 'Black' to 'Negro' in search of progress, that might be a necessary. I'm already sick of the default. Everybody thinks they're black and undeserving of criticism. I've learned by just saying 'Republican' how defending it sharpens your wits.

3) It is possible that the relatively longer period Negro History is richer than that of Black History. After all, the people we study during BLack History Month are almost all Negroes.

4) If black nationalism cannot be recovered, if its best aspects are shouted down by the noize and funk of the hiphop generation, then perhaps there will be no choice.

I have been waiting for you to post something like this.

As far as I can tell, Negro and Black could be used interchangeably.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro
'Negro means "black" in both Spanish and Portuguese languages, being derived from the Latin word niger of the same meaning.'...
'The term "negro", literally "black," was used by the Spanish and Portuguese to refer to black Africans and people with that heritage.'

In short, according to Wikipedia Negro = "Black". So when you talk about Black vs Negro, it raises some questions as to why you would pit the two against each other.

Why do you frame the Negro/Black question from within the rubric of Black nationalism?

Whenever I'm out in the black blogosphere, I'm always looking at how different people define Negro/Black.

Here's you: Black = black within a political context.
Here's Craig Nulan: Black = black within a religious context, a communion of persons.
Here's Me: Black = black within a epistemological/metaphysical context, i.e. a way of being/not a way of being.

You say: "Black isn't a color, it is a concept. However the meaning of that concept has become degraded." I agree with you 100% on this. But I want to make certain I'm reading you correctly on this. So, according to you, "black" (the concept) was invented/adopted "in order to liberate the Negro from his mental condition of servitude"? In other words, "black" was a type of psychological remedy to cure the will to servitude, right?

But if black isn't a color, then what does the word Negro mean as it was used by the Spanish/Portuguese? Put another way, to what "concept" were they referring when they used the word Negro? Certainly, then, it was we who infused the word with the meaning which is necessary to create a "concept", right?

Am I to assume from the tone of this post that you prefer Black over Negro? For me, the problem with "Black" is that it comes with a ton of requirements, duties, and expectations. "Black" is a saving power. But "Black" is also very dangerous because it allows people do define indentity in terms of "degrees" of "Black". Not "black" enough, and not "Negro" enough are two different things.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why my take on the whole Negro/Black debate always turns out so abstracted. But I think you've helped me figure out why. "Black" must necessarily have a context. You frame it terms of a political context. I think the reason that my ideas about "Black" turn out so postmodern and abstracted is that I frame it in terms of nature. Nature made "Black", not man. Nature knows nothing about what a "black consciousness" is. If you say that being a member of the Republican party makes a black person "white" (according to Gillards reverse one-drop rule), nature would reply, "You're an idiot."

Is my take on "Black" too literal to be of any practical use?

Here's Craig Nulan: Black = black within a religious context, a communion of persons.

sigh

If, as a number of orthodox scholars and practitioners contend, interpersonal communion is the sine qua non of human psychological development, and, if from an insiders perspective on both orthodoxy and blackness, the commonality is plainly evident between the effects of either, why is it so terribly difficult for you and Cobb to simply put my thesis to the test?

The cnu definition of blackness is nothing other than a practical and topological application of knowledge, skill, ability, effort, and attention to the needs of black folk in my community.

Surely there are project oriented, highly skilled black partisan folk in your zipcode with whom you could ally your knowledge, skill, ability, effort, and attention - to further the communal well-being? Consider it an investment in social capital that will pay lifelong dividends...,

I think that if you study these two magazine covers carefully, some of the nuance may be explained.

http://www.mdcbowen.org/cobb/archives/nd05-thumb.JPG

Notice that the one on the left, dated January 1969, (after the detroit riots and the assassination of MLK) is more clearly proclaiming 'black', and who better to put on the front page than LeRoi Jones? So what I'm saying that during the intellectual and artistic ferment of the times, there was a change in how people percieved themselves. Why? It was a melding of an aesthetic with an existential and a political message. A renaissance which still has a great influence today - despite the fact that most African Americans cannot identify the faces on the covers.

So when I say black has degraded, I think it's because the intellectual vanguard has dispersed and the quality of their message has been lost. Some of it remains valuable, some of it much less so.

The question, I think, is very easily and soundly answered by inquiries into the state of Black Art. If there was a Black Art avant guard, I might even consider going Progressive again, but I think blacks in the humanities have lost their minds, and now is the time to conserve.

CNu, I dig where you're coming from and I dig it. If I should become more rooted to a spot, then I could head down the road towards a Dyson's Utopia - decentralized and all. I don't think it would change my perscription for middleclass American politics, however. I think the suburb can evolve and work.

I think the suburb can evolve and work.

thermodynamics militate very strongly against this otherwise momentarily socially viable proposition. No civilization has ever been able to convince its members to cooperate enough to survive the depletion of the energy resources which gave it birth. When confronted with ever-declining resources, the preservation of civilization requires more-and-more cooperation, but individuals are genetically programmed to reduce cooperation. This genetic program sets up a positive feedback loop: declining common resources cause individuals to reduce cooperation even more, which reduces common resources even faster.

Decision time brah. You may wish to consider rootedness and community in terms of a familial rather than professional imperative.

So when I say black has degraded, I think it's because the intellectual vanguard has dispersed and the quality of their message has been lost. Some of it remains valuable, some of it much less so.

The question, I think, is very easily and soundly answered by inquiries into the state of Black Art. If there was a Black Art avant guard, I might even consider going Progressive again, but I think blacks in the humanities have lost their minds, and now is the time to conserve.

Fully concur. Most lack a coherent definition of blackness, as was demonstrated not too very long ago...,

in response to Negrorage:

1) being "Black" cannot be separated from living through a specific set of cultural practices.

2) being "Black" cannot be separated from a self experiencing an "inescapable" phenotype.

otherwise, anyone in the world could "be" Black, as all it would take is a state of mind, certain aesthetic, or collection of facts and true propositions about Black-ness into a certain all encompassing system.

(I know that my "cannot be separated from" can be "falsified" to some extent)

also, how could one be called a "Negro" and not be insulted?
this term was only rehabilitated by "Blacks", but its derogatory connotation, as signifying "you who are a product of my act of enslavement" cannot be erased.

"Black"? what the "Black Panther" and "Black Jacobin" claim in a "Black Consciousness", connecting N. American, Carribean, (South) Africans. Black is the African's eponymous titling of his "modernity".

have i left out Negritude, Brazil, and other problems?