Cobb

Your attempt to excuse Gonzales and Yoo because their actions were arguably legal is uncompelling. Democrats don't object to torture and its supporters because it is illegal, we object to it because it is wrong.

Well, I believe that the most compelling arguments are lost on partisan Democrats anyway. They go a little something like this: We are the country that firebombed German and Japanese civilians by the hundreds of thousands. We have even greater capacity for destruction today. We are using a insignificant fraction of that force in order to pursue a wiley foe that does not respect the rules of war. Cut us some slack, we're doing the right thing and the damage is not that great.

The War on Terror is, by and large a police action. Speaking as an African American citizen, I have up close and personal experience with police actions. Every lawyer with an ounce of experience in criminal justice will tell you that what American police do in cities every day, and what goes on in American prison every day, goes far, far beyond the limits established by the Geneva conventions. Common sense and a TV set will show you what Americans tolerate.

I am fed up to my elbows with those who cannot manage to get over their moral superiority about how we treat those determined to fight against American soldiers. I find them hypocritical, dainty and insatiably cynical. In fact, I am inclined to dismiss criticism by anyone who is not a pacifist. Only pacifists have a consistent anti-aggression argument, everyone else is trying to triangulate. I don't buy it.

It may be a sad commentary that some Americans are willing to go to what are considered extreme lengths in pursuit of the aims of the War on Terror, but some Americans are human first and internationalists second. We've had a referendum on this matter and the winner was clear. But that doesnt' give anyone an excuse for obstructionist tactics, especially if they are suggesting they have the moral upper hand.

The 'corporate lawyering' narrative is false. Thoughtful people aren't buying it. But even in it was true, this is one of the cleanest wars in human history. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The War on Terror has created no refugee problem. What do critics want, a chess game?

That's the bottom line on scope. America hasn't gone anywhere near a limit which would drive ordinary Americans to radicalism or street protests. When people start throwing bricks at home, then we have a problem whose actual seriousness merits the outsized rhetoric of the anti-Bush contingent. I say that time is 3000 American deaths away from today.

European countries and Russia have determined to bet against the intervention in Iraq... ahh too many subjects. Retort please?

Ian, you beat me to it. Cobb, torture by representatives of our country is wrong not because we signed some treaty but because we're are Americans and are (or should be)better than that.

Personally, I could care less if GW BUsh is a racist, its his horrible policies and incompetent administration that I dislike.

...and because it not only doesn't work, it exacerbates the problem.

We are not better than that and we shouldn't think we are.

Anon,

Sorry but draping a panty on someone's head to get information that might save thousands of lives just doesn't cut it for me as torture. You want torture, check in with the terrorists or the saddam people, they will give you all the torture you need. Playing loud music, lights on 24 hours, sleep deprivation, that is not real torture. Real torture is making the choice of whether to jump from the 107th floor or burn up there or choke to death in the smoke in the stairwells. That is torture.

Try not to subliminate you hatred of GWB into acceptance of anything that goes against him. You will not like your compatriots at all.

BTW tell the Afghanis and the Iraqis who voted this past year and the Libyans who no longer have to worry about a fool developing nuclear weapons while depriving them of basic food and medicines whether the horrible policies and incompetent administration of Bush is better. Also compare the unemployment and job statistics of the US to our Euro non-believers. Then ask the Palestinians and Jews who are now agreeing to a possible peace and a country for the Palestinians whether the Bush policies work. I know, you will claim that Reagan was not responsible for the fall of the USSR and Bush is not responsible for the agreement of Abbas and Sharon. That would be too inconvenient for you. However, if he had not had his policies, then none of the above would have happened whether you like it or not.

I'm prone to believe that neither Democrats nor Republicans object to torture as long as it works. If Democrats objected to torture, then why haven't they brought up this story:

The CIA has the authority to carry out renditions under a presidential directive dating to the Clinton administration, which the Bush administration has reviewed and renewed.