Cobb

In spite of all that has followed was this not what the Panthers were saying? When they went head to head with the police in Sacramento were they not saying that we will take you with us and that it won't be one sided anymore. I do remember the change in the way peopl were before and after the riots. Was it respect or fear I won't be ever sure but I must say that the quality of my life went up a step or two.

I think so. The basic message was probably that. I've got some Panthers research somewhere linked within Cobb and my big website.

The problem of course is that you can't do racial conflict without nationalism, and you can't do nationalism without land. The Panthers were surrounded from day one.

The Panthers self-destructed because they simply didn't have the leadership. They were wearing big boots but had little feet, and of course they got carried away with their revolutionary rhetoric. All they really had to do was be a decent enough Mafia and the good things they started might have continued, but again this is the whole problem with all the public rhetoric. It's the same problem the head wanker Al Sadr has with his militia. He's in over his head and doesn't know when to quit, he's got a jail cell or a grave waiting for him.

The question all ex-black nationalists face is how to translate that energy and love into something that will work and last in America. I suspect we'll end up seeing some land and towns in the South. Nice little towns that work. Somewhere, there's a very excellent interview with Skip Gates talking to Morgan Freeman.

I think much of what African Americans have become through black consciousness is fearless and this has sufficed along with the changes in the law to make for the emergence of a sizeable middle class, and that will keep going. What remains to be seen is where families will go - is integration the final frontier? I think we're to big to be assimilated and that some Old School black will remain. I'd like to see that black leadership work long term. Somebody needs to keep the Thelonious Monk Institute up and running. Somebody needs to have some old castles and build some hospitals.

Quite frankly I don't want to put anybody I've seen in public politics in charge of my fight with the nation of millions who would hold me back. Instead, I want to depend on my own networks, and posses.

Ding! That is one of the many reasons that I am not a Democrat. And I think it speaks to the question: what have the Republicans done for black Americans lately? Answer: nothing except to stand back out of the way and let us do for ourselves.

nothing except to stand back out of the way and let us do for ourselves.

Then why is Bush saying he's done good things for Blacks? That's rhetorical.

Doing it for yourself sounds fine, but how would you have overturned the Seperate but equal laws by yourself? I know all that's in the past--

How would you stop your area from being redlined by yourself? How would you stop racial profiling?

The fact is that any situation where the problem arises from wrongful acts based on your status is going to depend on cooperation from other folks--that you don't know--who share that status. Elsewise, you ain't being discriminated against on the basis of your race, you are being discriminated against because you are you.

Likewise, if you choose to shoot it out, you are just going to be one black man who snapped with a gun if you don't have an army.

I think your title "Race: Public Dialog vs Single Combat" is an excellent one-line explanation of the fundamental difference in political attitudes between Liberal and Conservative. While the Conservative movement is focused on allowing the individual to change and adapt the Liberal model is one of changing others and society to accomodate the individual. While the ideals promised by Liberalism may be enticing (teaching the world to sing in perfect harmony and all that jazz), it is like other utopoian visions such as Communism or even Naziism (which would have been utopian for those lucky few Aryans), the promise always lies just over the hill "once we get those people to think straight."

Cobb: "I suspect we'll end up seeing some land and towns in the South. Nice little towns that work."

Is this some sort of separatism or black-nationalism coming out? Maybe I'm misunderstanding exactly what you mean, but I was a bit surprised to read what sounds to me like a distinctly separatist notion coming from someone I've come to consider as individualistic. I tend to see the idea of separartism by any distict group as an expression of bis against the "other". While I would never claim to understand the direct and personal effects of anti-minority bias, I think there is a clear distinction between the natural tendency to associate with others of common experience and a need to band together in common defense against injustice and the desire to take your ball and go home. I live in an unfortunately very racially charged city and often get exasperated at the level of garbage thrown over the White/Black fence from both sides, but I don't believe the answer is to make the fence higher. Rather, I hold that individuals and companies that recognize and work with people based upon their qualities and competencies will succeed while those who continue to wallow in the ignorance of bigotry will flounder. I guess you could call me a "free-market anti-racist".

Dave,

Many years ago I had the opportunity to play beach volleyball with kids who live in Edgartown on Martha's Vineyard. They just happened to be there because they decided, against tradition, not to head down to Ft. Myers FL where they usually are at that point in time in the summer. If it were winter I would have had to catch them at Vail or Beaver Creek, CO. My point is that old money has a curious way of settling down in particular places. I expect the new black old money to do the same.

Atlanta is 'the black mecca' with its mayors, police chiefs and execs at CocaCola, but there are meccas within meccas. Cascade Road and North Fayette for example. I could point out where Ludacris, Gladys Knight or (obviously) Evander Holyfield lives. These places *are* separate. Just as the 5th Ward in Houston and Hunter's Point in SF are poor and separate.

I'm not saying there is any solution found in making the fence higher, what I'm saying is that there needs to be some black collective private action that raises the bar of what expectations Americans have of our capacities. One of the best examples I can think of was how a number of blacks in the NYC area put together a couple million to settle an Affirmative Action suit out of court. The very idea is almost unthinkable, that blacks could make whites sell out their own racial self-interests.

Somewhere I wrote something about segregation vs aggregation. I'll check the archives.

BTW I also met one of the daughters of the black family who tended to THE Vanderbilts on the Vineyard that summer. She liked my poetry, but couldn't be seen with me after sunset.

Chris,

I don't discount the necessity of collective work, of collaboration itself. I discount the putative effectiveness of collaborations of mass movements.

Take the redlining example. The aggregate discrimination that JoeRedneck Insurance is capable of generating is some reasonably small number that can be borne by the consumer. That's the nature of such piecemeal disenfranchisements. But so long as those individuals disenfranchised cannot simply redirect those same funds towards a counter-strike, you're not going to be effective in fighting it.

So while I agree that my abstracted status may be the tag for discrimination, that same status is not generally effective for class actions. Who's bigger and better organized, their marketing department or my advocacy group? What's worse is that when it comes to race, advocacy groups are all over the place working off assumptions that don't fit their purported constituencies. I have no problem with what Jesse Jackson does, I have a problem that he is presumed to be a monopoly and a full proxy.

Cobb,

Roger, thanks for clarifying. I know what you're saying about the way a sort of "enclave" can be formed. I've noticed the same dynamic in Atlanta, too. In a way, though, it seems that urban flight has had almost as much to do with the ascendancy of blacks into leadership positions in many major cities in the US. When you look at cities such as Detroit (82% black), Memphis (61%), Atlanta (61%) and Birmingham (74%), with their black majorities it is only expected for their government to have heavy black representation. Of course, the question of if these officials are truly representative of the constituency in economic terms remains valid, but that would be true regardles of the racial make up of the city.
(percentages listed above pulled from BrownWatch, and while I can't vouch for their accuracy I have no doubt that they at least represent approximate values)

Urban flight doesn't tell all of the story. What happened in the case of cities like Detroit was a combination of structural factors (creation of highways, creation of racially exclusive suburbs), demographic factors (growing black numerical strength), and inter-racial competition. In cities like Detroit, blacks won. In cities like Baltimore and Saint Louis, the jury is out. But in cases like Detroit, when blacks win...the whites DO take their balls and go home. Because they CAN.

(as an aside, naziism is an outgrowth of old school conservative philosophy...don't make the mistake of conflating liberal ideology with totalitarian or authoritarian regimes.)

I'm going to assume that what Debra Dickerson is trying to say is that whatever "truth" is revealed thru this honest dialogue stuff is what will inform smart answers to the question of what action should be taken to rise the tide in Black Boat Harbour.

It's great (I assume she'd say) that you're well ahead on that honesty tip, but it does no good in onesy-twosey steps. This angle has to catch fire -- it's only effective/productive en masse.

Anyway, it's like Mase and Puffy said, it's like she be talkin' funny. Whose honesty are we talking about? Will it necessarily lead to truth? I can honestly believe the world is flat, but it obviously doesn't mean my beliefs are aligned with fact.

Talking about degrees in this context only makes sense if they're close. Racism/Self-hate may not be a stark Black and/or White issue, but just because a matchstick flame and a forest fire are both hot, it doesn't mean they get equal consideration.

One other thing, Blacks in places of power/priveledge get the Jackie Robinsonesque dissing whether Democrat, Republican or Green Party member (man, how come the Greenies never catch props for their platform? They're, like, waaay underepresented in that group. Are Blacks not "advanced" enough yet to bother caring about Environment-as-Issue-Number-One?).

Black MBA Guy: "B-B-But I voted for Bush!"

The (Racist) Man: "We don't care if you were his personal butler. Get the f*ck out."

Don't be so quick to diss those in public politricks trying to fight the good fight. They help maintain the environment, the very backbone upon which your networks (and posses) can thrive.

Full Disclosure -- I'm white and I live in a primarily white universe (I have very little contact with blacks either personally and professionaly), so I might not know what I'm talking about. I can only speak from my own experience. There are black Americans whom I admire for what they have accomplished (Bill Cosby, Michael Jordan), what they think and write (Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams), the leadership they provide (Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Harold Ford, Jr.), and some less fameous black Americans that I know personally and admire for these same reasons. It seems to me that black Americans can get past racism by being Americans. It is true of me, and I expect of most people, that we evaluate others based on what they have done more than by who they are.

Do black Americans have a pass a higher bar than white Americans? Maybe. If I see two people, one black and one white, does my first impression, before I know anything else about them, take into account race? I don't think so, but maybe. I know that my first impression has a lot to do with other outward appearances (i.e., attire, "attitude," etc.). But I think I give a fair opportunity to anyone after I get to know him or her as an individual, and I think most other people do too.

Is is fair that black Americans have the "baggage" of slavery and Jim Crow? No, but I'm not sure what we can do about it now. I think that the black leaders who harp on racism all of the time do a disservice to the black community and to all Americans. As a white American, Jesse Jackson turns me off in every way imaginable; Al Sharpton is nothing more than comic relief. On the other hand, I admire black leaders who attain positions of leadership in the community as a whole by hard work and skill.

If there is a point to all of this, it is that I (and I think most Americans) have no desire to exclude black Americans from anything based solely on skin color. Black Americans can succeed by the tried and true forumla: hard work and skill. If racism is to be brought to an end in the USA, it will be brought to an end by ordinary people realizing by experience that black Americans are as capable as anyone else. Perhaps, therefore, black Americans should focus on being good citizens and good workers in their respective fields.

Ben,

I hear you and I agree with you. Americans fundamentally give each other the benefit of the doubt. But people also respect others the way they respect themselves, and that goes both ways. One of the reasons that it's tricky to deal with on a personal level, especially between blacks and whites that come from different worlds within America is because we can be so different. Bridging those gaps requires more than the average amount of faith and goodwill given the history of this country.

Again, I'm not saying and never do that blackfolks and whitefolks need any help from me or whomever to get together. They will and the do all the time. But we have this weird way of approaching each other when we are uneasy. Suddenly blacks feel a whole lot more black when they are surrounded, suddenly whites feel a lot more white when they are surrounded. Such insecurities can be painful and paralyzing. However as citizens, that's no excuse. Get over it and do the right thing.

One more thing I want to note is that there is a kind of situational slipperiness in what racial identity means. In those surrounded situations, people fall back on the stereotypes of what they think the *other* person is thinking about them. A whole lot of evasiveness goes on. Throw sex into the mix and it gets doubly weird. All Americans understand how different is: "A guy walks into a bar" and "A white girl walks into a black bar..." I'm recognizing, but I'm not studying interpersonal dynamics.

Whatever it takes for folks to graduate (not ignore or be willfully blind to) through that study makes us all better as a nation, but only symbolically. Because what we know is that interpersonal dynamic is a consequence of closing off blacks from the political economy of America. Thats the kind of equality which doesn't exist that makes this dynamic replicated over the generations. So the right attitude is just the first step; for a long time whitefolks are just going to have to respect the potential of blackfolks because the reality will be that even when the system is fair, some people have a headstart and others do not. The system may be fair, but it's not equal.

It also means that blackfolks are going to have to deal with the fact of economic disparities: the system is unequal, but it's not necessarily unfair.

That's a difficult pill to swallow, but listen to me, I'm dialoging. My overall point is that this is something that different parts of the nation and different individuals are going to deal with at their own pace, and there is no single method that's going to get people through it all at once. I think people owe it to themselves to find out what it's like on the other side of the rainbow, because what all those multiculturalist looneys are saying holds truth, when Americans treat each other right it truly is stronger, better, faster.

(Touching lightly, multiculturalism is good on the high level overviews, but weak on the economics and low level details: More here)

I bring all this up from a black perspective because it is my experience that my ability brings hostility. There are still to many Americans who haven't done their goddamned homework, and when I come correct, they are not prepared to deal with that reality. Since I'm not going to slow down simply because knuckleheads are in the way, then I expect conflict. And extrapolating this, I understand that there are a lot of African Americans who share this same grief, and a lot of others who may be theoretically prepared but still flounder with the goofy interpersonal dynamics when the deal comes down. Dealing with all of the implications of this is one of the core reasons I started Cobb. Read about Moe Greene here.

Now here's the hard part. You can't really know how black and white are going to be interpreted or expressed. But you are going to have to recognize and give props anyway. That sometimes gets down to individual cases but other times you can definitely say 'It's a black thing'. There's no solution. You can just watch and learn.

I understand completely where MS.Dickerson is coming from. I find myself struggling with the thought that the average black person,particularly black males psychotic obsession with white or non-black women as beastial. As a black man that's something very difficult and hurtfull to acknowlege even to one's self. I think at this point talking without action is piontless. We must change ourselves. As was noted whites had to change their concept of the Japenese, primarily because the Japenese took action. I'm not advocating violence but blacks can take action in far more productive ways in other areas besides sports and crime. We can change or start the change by having the same type of respect for ourselves as we have for others.

Mr. Cobb,
No offense intended for your friend of the family, but I think that he is wrong in his historical analysis. White America didn't start respecting Japan until they showed that they could compete economically with the US. When they showed that they could kill a few of us, we retaliated and killed a lot of them. That frequently happens when you try define respect as "fear that someone can hurt you".