Cobb

I've been wrasslin with Avery Tooley a bit on this subject of the "conservative" label. From what I can see, you sho nuff look more like an Independent than bona fide Conservative per se.

Howzabout you change yer moniker to the Brotherhood of Conservative Independents? More apt, no?

No thanks. Conservative to me means there is a limited amount of good stuff in the world of values and going out to look for more is dangerous foolishness. It might conflict with how I grew up (to be a scientist and explorer) but its clearly where I'm at. It goes pretty deep.

Understand that I'm the kind of conservative who has a problem with how many new conservatives there are, and that means Rush Limbaugh. Who let him in?

Mebbe you could explain what it means to be "Conservative." If you mainly mean the whole "family values" thing, those are values shared by both sides of the political spectrum.

What I'm saying is that "Conservative" has strong political party connotations (uh, Republican, natch) -- and it's not a mold you seem to fit into very snugly.

"Independent" has no (or little) political affiliation and seems more appropriate considering the range of your stances on mainstream political issues.

You can be a conservative independent if you wish but your set of values are your own.

Cosby's call for responsibility versus victimization is right on. If one accepts responsibility for the problem; one is empowered to fix it.

How would you define a conservative? How would you define yourself as a conservative?

The conundrum of the conservative black--in the general use of the word it means keeping things as they are. I assume as a black you are not content with where you are. There are problems you have you want addressed.

I hold that any black person who does not hold to the values of white conservatives with regard to blacks is not a conservative. What values do they hold? It is hard to say, they lie about them so much these days. It would seem to me that they want black people in their lives as little as possible--not in their homes, their families, their neighborhoods, at their jobs, not on their tv or movie screens (save as fondly remembered comic stereotypes)not in their churches--

And don't bother to bring up that most liberals feel the same way--for one, we know they are lying and on blacks they feel the same way--they just don't want to say it.

I am a black man 54 years old. On many so called social issues, I might be seen as a conservative. Where I differ is that I feel they are my own beliefs and I don't choose to impose them on others. On black people--never. So--again, I ask for a definition of a black conservative.

How would you define a conservative? How would you define yourself as a conservative?

The conundrum of the conservative black--in the general use of the word it means keeping things as they are. I assume as a black you are not content with where you are. There are problems you have you want addressed.

I hold that any black person who does not hold to the values of white conservatives with regard to blacks is not a conservative. What values do they hold? It is hard to say, they lie about them so much these days. It would seem to me that they want black people in their lives as little as possible--not in their homes, their families, their neighborhoods, at their jobs, not on their tv or movie screens (save as fondly remembered comic stereotypes)not in their churches--

And don't bother to bring up that most liberals feel the same way--for one, we know they are lying and on blacks they feel the same way--they just don't want to say it.

I am a black man 54 years old. On many so called social issues, I might be seen as a conservative. Where I differ is that I feel they are my own beliefs and I don't choose to impose them on others. On black people--never. So--again, I ask for a definition of a black conservative.

Good. Let me handle this.

The basic distinction between 'black conservative' and 'conservative black' is that the former are folks who fit conveniently into the mainstream definition of conservatives. I've called them 'Carbon Copy Conservatives' when they got on my nerves but I'm probably less harsh now for a number of reasons. A 'conservative black' is one who is conservative by black standards. I want to both tweak this definition and leave it alone.

What I am trying to express is the difference between arriving at position X based on rationale taken at face value from mainstream conservatives and arriving at the same position based on 'organic black thought'. In the end if both folks vote Republican, I don't care much about the difference because they are engaged in the political process, which is all I can ask of a citizen. However I am particularly concerned about those who have done the 'organic black thought' but don't want to vote Republican because of a distaste for those strange bedfellows who also occupy position X.

So the Boondocks grandfather who says you triflin' negroes ought to get a job, but ends up supporting minimum wage because he hates Trent Lott is the man I want to slap around. But I also want to slap around the kid who thinks he's not black because he wants to be a veterenarian and got into Cornell without Affirmative Action.

I don't care about the racial proclivities of mainstream conservatives who you percieve as wanting blacks in their lives as little as possible. I deal with racists the way I deal with racists, period. But I'm not going to stop saying the sky is blue just because the Klan says so too. But I also take exception to the idea that racial animus is central to their political philosophy or that any evidence of that permanently remains the case for the Conservative movement.

Democrats in California didn't vote for Reagan because he was in the John Birch Society. And I'm not so clear as to why the JBS is supposedly synonymous with the KKK. Not that it matters. That is not Reagan's legacy.

oh thank goodness you were able to decipher my gobbledegook born of sleep deprivation (still suffering). this is by far the best explanation of black conservatism i've read to date. thank you, cobb. you've freed me, i think. i may still come back and bite you on your ass about this (gotta think it all the way thru -- your last paragraph is throwin me off), but you've given me sound reason for pause.

Hmmm. On 8th thought, before I bestow upon you my handy-dandy blue-ribboned Medal of Mental Freedom, I think you must needs come out of the bushes a little further, Cobb.

Could you please give us a few specific examples of stances that make you distinctly Conservative?

And where does bible-based morality fit into this?

"No thanks. Conservative to me means there is a limited amount of good stuff in the world of values and going out to look for more is dangerous foolishness."

Engrave it in stone!

"...A 'conservative black' is one who is conservative by black standards. I want to both tweak this definition and leave it alone..."

Engrave this one in a waffle.

The biggest problem I see in this debate is the question of who gets to define what we should think.

I mean while I understand what "memer" is trying to say in that first comment, it is still a case of not allowing us to define our own politics. It is the same mistake that the Julian Bonds' of the world make when they try to paint us as "race hustlers." We are not supposed to be "conservative" because we're black? Who says so? The white Democrat politician that relies on 96% support of the black vote? Or the Democrat that panders to us by offering to raise the minimum wage (as though that is the only kind of job blacks care about?) Does "independent" seem more palatable when describing black conservatives because the left's constant attempts to link "conservative" with "racist?"

If Cobb wanted to label his group 'independent' that's for him to decide. I have no doubts of the conservative credentials of anyone in the 'Brotherhood'. Just like the general conservative population, each individual has their own unique perspective. (In other words, just because they are a black group, doesn't mean they have groupthink.)

The first step to black true empowerment (and the biggest fear of the left) is the right for each individual to define himself based on "being engaged in the political process" and not just voting for Democrat because 'that's just what black folk do.'

I don't need anyone to help me define my politics. That's my job.

I define myself as a conservative because I indeed have very similar thought processes and come to many of the same conclusions politically as other conservatives do- black, white, hispanic, and otherwise. Regardless of how I get to my position, whether through the "organically black thought" or through the process of dialectic and debate, or through my unique experiences as a Christian, husband, father, son, citizen, and yes, an American of African descent in the United States, I define myself as a conservative.

(Damn- I should have saved that for my blog. I'll think twice before I write so much next time- still pretty new at this!)